Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

Tha Ghee wrote:

>.... are you this sad that you can't compare 04 models. This is sad
>Stevie it's 04 not 99-00 so come better, no you piss off.
>www.caranddriver.com no Audi in this or last years top10 so come better, oh
>you can't.
>
I'm looking at my copy of the January 2004 Car & Driver right now. The
new Audi S4 is on the 2004 list. Look here.
<http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=33&article_id=7574>
The A4 made it in 2002.
The A6 and TT made it in 2001
The A6 and TT made it in 2000
The A4 made it in 1998


Tha Ghee wrote on 3/20/04:

>any Engineer will tell you that it is impossible to have agile handling and
>AWD at the same time.
>
I'm a mechanical engineer (BSME, most of a MSME). It *is* possible to
have agile handling and AWD at the same time. My car, an all wheel
drive Subaru WRX wagon, made the C&D 10 best list in 2002 and 2003. I
know it is very agile.
The all wheel drive WRX STi is Road & Track's
<http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=1206>
reader's choice car for 2004 (MSRP under US$100,000.) That car beat out
the rear wheel drive Porsche GT3, BMW 5-series, Mazda RX-8, and Nissan
350Z, among others. While you may not like them, those cars aren't
exactly known as floaty boats in the handling department.

All wheel drive vehicles can have very agile handling if that is what
they are designed for. A 6000lb Ford Excursion SUV is not. A Subaru
Outback is not. My WRX and some quattro Audi's are. An A6 2.8q is
tuned more for comfort, while the 2.7T and 4.2 version are more agile.
Same thing with the A4 line - cars without a sport package are made more
for comfort than agility. That does not make it impossible to create an
all wheel drive version that is tuned for agility. Look at the S4 or A4
S-line.

Car & Driver says the all wheel drive VW Golf R32 is a ready-made
autocrosser right from the factory. It's not as fast in a straight line
as, say, a STi is, but its handling is superb. It has the same
drivetrain as the 3.2 TT quattro (but a different transmission in the
US). A quote from the May 2004 issue: "recovery in quick transitions is
instantaneous, the car changes direction like a mongoose sorting through
a box of cobras" That sounds pretty agile to me. All wheel drive, when
tuned for that purpose, can allow the driver get back on the power
earlier in a curve than either front or wheel wheel drive can. All
wheel drive cars are a bit heavier than equivalent two wheel drive
versions - so they are incrementally slower in a straight line. And
there can be a bit more friction in the powertrain. But neither of
those things necessarily prevents a car from having agile handling.
Extra weight is a detriment, but we're not talking about a thousand
pound difference (the R32 is ~300lb heavier than a GTI VR6).

You can make a rear wheel drive car handle very well. You can make an
all wheel drive car handle very well. Audi, Porsche, Subaru,
Mitsubishi, and others have proven it's possible. I firmly believe if a
car (of any drivetrain layout) doesn't handle well, or isn't agile, it's
a matter of the engineers and accountants saying "no" rather than "can't".

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

>I'm looking at my copy of the January 2004 Car & Driver right now. The
>new Audi S4 is on the 2004 list.

I already posted the URL for him twice. But he'll ignore it and claim it
doesn't exist.

>I'm a mechanical engineer (BSME, most of a MSME). It *is* possible to
>have agile handling and AWD at the same time.

Not to degrade your degree, but you don't need to be an engineer to know this.
You just need the capacity for logic, a mild understanding of weight
distribution and suspension tuning, and some real world experience behind the
wheel of various makes and models. Ghee has none of these things, so it's hard
for him to understand. He's quite good at lying and fabricating stories though.

>That car beat out
>the rear wheel drive Porsche GT3, BMW 5-series, Mazda RX-8, and Nissan
>350Z, among others.

IMHO, it got elected for it's price point and because it's been driven by a
much larger percentage of the population than the GT3. You might be interested
in reading Sports Car magazines (April 04' issue I think) comparo between the
Lancer Evolution RS (the lightweight version) Corvette Z06 and Carrera GT3. The
GT3 won outright in terms of track dynamics and overall ability but it
obviously losses to the Lancer when it comes to bang for the buck. I'm a little
sad that Porsche won't be offering the Carrera GT3 RS here in North America
though.

>While you may not like them, those cars aren't
>exactly known as floaty boats in the handling department.

Ghee wouldn't. Assuming he's even actually old enough to drive (which is
something I can't be sure of), his experience behind the wheel is lacking
severly and it shows.

>All wheel drive vehicles can have very agile handling if that is what
>they are designed for.

He won't understand this. Ghee thinks that AWD cars are all derived from Rally
cars and that Touring and Rally are the same thing. He also cites F1 as his
primary example for proof of RWD superiority and refuses to acknowledge the
fact that BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge and various other RWD racers are losing to
Quattro Audis in Speed's Touring series. He also claims that Ferrari history of
racing is superior to Porsche's and Audi's histories, which is a blatant
falsehood.

>Car & Driver says the all wheel drive VW Golf R32 is a ready-made
>autocrosser right from the factory. It's not as fast in a straight line
>as, say, a STi is, but its handling is superb.

VW Vortex (www.vwvortex.com) and "Sub Driven" (www.subdriven.com) did a
comparison test in conjunction with one another of the R32, Lancer EVO and WRX
STi. The R32 lagged in 0-60 tests but it was compareable on the track with
better control and dynamics. They agreed that VW's tire choice for the R32 was
poor, and that a tire upgrade would put it easily ahead of the Japanese cars
thanks to it's more "track oriented" suspension. VF Engineering put togethor a
supercharged version of the R32 (it was featured in European Car, I believe it
was the November or December 2003 issue) that could pull off 0-60 in 3.2
seconds, and included suspension and drivetrain upgrades for a total cost of
under $50k.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040407164955.17939.00001011@mb-m06.aol.com...
> >the only way to have a intelligent conversation is to have it with myself
>
> You're so full of . I nailed you to the cross on that posting, now
DIE.
>
> >you're not holding up your end of the argument.
>
> Please see the above statement.
>
> >how do I lie goggle it
> >dullard
>
> You're the last person who should be calling anyone a dullard. I don't
need to
> google the posts because I KNOW what was said. You're not only the liar,
you're the minority, and the one arguing a minority point of view (however
false it
> might be). The burden of proof is on YOU my little liar.
>
> >no you haven't they all have
> >rallying roots or come from the same company, but I guess you can't
figure
> >this out.
>
> I listed products from Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, Porsche, Audi and
others.
> Please go back to the list and find how all of them are either the product
of a
> single company or derived from rally cars.
>
> >what did I lie about, look how old that test is the C32 isn't even made
> >anymore, are you this sad that you can't compare 04 models
>
> This is the road test that you'd been lying about through dozens of posts.
Now
> that I've shown the board your lies, your backpeddling in order to try and
find
> a defense. This is the most recent comparison avaliable that includes the
MB,
> BMW and Audi, and the newer model MB wasn't avaliable at the test.
However, it's of little relevance because the S4 still scored 2 points
higher than the M3 for handling and road holding, and it was ranked as the
BEST of the group, not the easiest to drive as you originally spewed.
>
> > This is sad
> >Stevie it's 04 not 99-00
>
> That test was from LATE 2003, and is the most recent where both the M3 and
the S4 were togethor. Moron, did you read the article?
>
> > no Audi in this or last years top10 so come better, oh
> >you can't.
>
> What?? Januray 2004:
>
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?...&page_number=1
> Januray, 2004, 2 months ago!
>
> >if you look at the sentence it states that the E55 is the best performer
of sedans, and the M3 is the best in the compact class.
>
> No it doesn't! First off, the M3 and S4 were in the "middleweights"
category,
> not "compacts" which was a lower rung comparison. Secondly, the Audi
scored higher everywhere it mattered and won, it was the best! Here's the
URL to the comparo, AGAIN:
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?...&page_number=1
>
> >I know which ones compete against which one
>
> No you don't, you can't read.
>
> >I've posted all the major car mags. website so you can try
> >and do some reading.
>
> You didn't link to jack you little loser.
>
> >the only article you have is from 4 YEARS ago
>
> It's from 2003 YOU DOLT. Read it! It's less than a year old you silly
bastard.
>
> >give me your email and I'll
> >be happy to.
>
> It's in my postings, try READING.

you have yet to do anything, I'm killing you, step your argument up so I can
have something to do. so since you have yet to prove a point I'm now in the
minority, oh well go head and put up the white flag, I've proven you wrong
over and over aging, just look at all the old post, like PT said I'm the
champion. all the companies you listed have cars that are derived from
lessons learned from rallying, and two are the same company. Like I said
that's an old campro, how am I backpedaling, I've proved that the S4 was not
compared to the best small sports sedans, so it can't be garnered best, just
better than what's on the market now, and it barley bet the M3, if you look
through all the stats it's a smidge ahead. OK, but it doesn't have the NEW
MB yet so it's old. dumb dumb, you do realize that the M3 and S4 are
compact by EPA standard, but I can tell you've never look at that guide. I
can read better than you, I've pointed out the numerous times you've mis
read. I didn't know if it was yours or your moms I wouldn't want to upset
her knowing her sons a loser, and dumbass.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

that's not the argument, Stevie & his boyfriend said that AWD are better performers than RWD, and I was showing them that they all have there +'s and -'s, Byron I totally agree with all you posted, their point was that an AWD is a better performer than a RWD, and I disagreed with them. any car can made to handle well, or like a pillow, depending on what the designers are looking for.


"Byron" <tackyfart@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:407505b2$0$1667$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
Tha Ghee wrote:

..... are you this sad that you can't compare 04 models. This is sad
Stevie it's 04 not 99-00 so come better, no you piss off.
www.caranddriver.com no Audi in this or last years top10 so come better, oh
you can't.I'm looking at my copy of the January 2004 Car & Driver right now. The new Audi S4 is on the 2004 list. Look here.
The A4 made it in 2002.
The A6 and TT made it in 2001
The A6 and TT made it in 2000
The A4 made it in 1998


Tha Ghee wrote on 3/20/04:

any Engineer will tell you that it is impossible to have agile handling and
AWD at the same time.I'm a mechanical engineer (BSME, most of a MSME). It is possible to have agile handling and AWD at the same time. My car, an all wheel drive Subaru WRX wagon, made the C&D 10 best list in 2002 and 2003. I know it is very agile.
The all wheel drive WRX STi is Road & Track's reader's choice car for 2004 (MSRP under US$100,000.) That car beat out the rear wheel drive Porsche GT3, BMW 5-series, Mazda RX-8, and Nissan 350Z, among others. While you may not like them, those cars aren't exactly known as floaty boats in the handling department.

All wheel drive vehicles can have very agile handling if that is what they are designed for. A 6000lb Ford Excursion SUV is not. A Subaru Outback is not. My WRX and some quattro Audi's are. An A6 2.8q is tuned more for comfort, while the 2.7T and 4.2 version are more agile. Same thing with the A4 line - cars without a sport package are made more for comfort than agility. That does not make it impossible to create an all wheel drive version that is tuned for agility. Look at the S4 or A4 S-line.

Car & Driver says the all wheel drive VW Golf R32 is a ready-made autocrosser right from the factory. It's not as fast in a straight line as, say, a STi is, but its handling is superb. It has the same drivetrain as the 3.2 TT quattro (but a different transmission in the US). A quote from the May 2004 issue: "recovery in quick transitions is instantaneous, the car changes direction like a mongoose sorting through a box of cobras" That sounds pretty agile to me. All wheel drive, when tuned for that purpose, can allow the driver get back on the power earlier in a curve than either front or wheel wheel drive can. All wheel drive cars are a bit heavier than equivalent two wheel drive versions - so they are incrementally slower in a straight line. And there can be a bit more friction in the powertrain. But neither of those things necessarily prevents a car from having agile handling. Extra weight is a detriment, but we're not talking about a thousand pound difference (the R32 is ~300lb heavier than a GTI VR6).

You can make a rear wheel drive car handle very well. You can make an all wheel drive car handle very well. Audi, Porsche, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and others have proven it's possible. I firmly believe if a car (of any drivetrain layout) doesn't handle well, or isn't agile, it's a matter of the engineers and accountants saying "no" rather than "can't".

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040408174019.14008.00000023@mb-m05.aol.com...
> >I'm looking at my copy of the January 2004 Car & Driver right now. The
> >new Audi S4 is on the 2004 list.
>
> I already posted the URL for him twice. But he'll ignore it and claim it
> doesn't exist.
>
> >I'm a mechanical engineer (BSME, most of a MSME). It *is* possible to
> >have agile handling and AWD at the same time.
>
> Not to degrade your degree, but you don't need to be an engineer to know
this. You just need the capacity for logic, a mild understanding of weight
> distribution and suspension tuning, and some real world experience behind
the
> wheel of various makes and models. Ghee has none of these things, so it's
hard
> for him to understand. He's quite good at lying and fabricating stories
though.
>
> >That car beat out the rear wheel drive Porsche GT3, BMW 5-series, Mazda
RX-8, and Nissan 350Z, among others.
>
> IMHO, it got elected for it's price point and because it's been driven by
a
> much larger percentage of the population than the GT3. You might be
interested in reading Sports Car magazines (April 04' issue I think) comparo
between the Lancer Evolution RS (the lightweight version) Corvette Z06 and
Carrera GT3. The GT3 won outright in terms of track dynamics and overall
ability but it obviously losses to the Lancer when it comes to bang for the
buck. I'm a little sad that Porsche won't be offering the Carrera GT3 RS
here in North America though.
>
> >While you may not like them, those cars aren't
> >exactly known as floaty boats in the handling department.
>
> Ghee wouldn't. Assuming he's even actually old enough to drive (which is
> something I can't be sure of), his experience behind the wheel is lacking
> severly and it shows.
>
> >All wheel drive vehicles can have very agile handling if that is what
> >they are designed for.
>
> He won't understand this. Ghee thinks that AWD cars are all derived from
Rally cars and that Touring and Rally are the same thing. He also cites F1
as his
> primary example for proof of RWD superiority and refuses to acknowledge
the
> fact that BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge and various other RWD racers are losing to
> Quattro Audis in Speed's Touring series. He also claims that Ferrari
history of
> racing is superior to Porsche's and Audi's histories, which is a blatant
> falsehood.
>
> >Car & Driver says the all wheel drive VW Golf R32 is a ready-made
> >autocrosser right from the factory. It's not as fast in a straight line
> >as, say, a STi is, but its handling is superb.
>
> VW Vortex (www.vwvortex.com) and "Sub Driven" (www.subdriven.com) did
acomparison test in conjunction with one another of the R32, Lancer EVO and
WRX STi. The R32 lagged in 0-60 tests but it was compareable on the track
with better control and dynamics. They agreed that VW's tire choice for the
R32 was poor, and that a tire upgrade would put it easily ahead of the
Japanese cars
> thanks to it's more "track oriented" suspension. VF Engineering put
togethor a
> supercharged version of the R32 (it was featured in European Car, I
believe it
> was the November or December 2003 issue) that could pull off 0-60 in 3.2
> seconds, and included suspension and drivetrain upgrades for a total cost
of
> under $50k.

No I've seen it, and all the urls I've posted you have glossed passed.
Stevie I won my own vehicle do you still try to pimp out your parents ride??
I have plenty of driving experience doing for over 10 yrs. now. Not at all,
my point is that, you only cite, rallying and rallying derived cars, the GTR
was not rallying inspired, it's just that Rhys, took it up the hill and Gran
Tur made it a hit, I know the difference last time I check the FWD Stratus
does well. I never said it was better, I said that it had a great history,
Stevie why is it that you can't prove your point so you start making up
stories, just goggle it, there's the proof, or are you scared to do that??

one day Stevie you may get off your knees, and read then react no the other
way around.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

>No I've seen it,

So that's why you continued to claim that the S4 hadn't made C&D's 2004 10Best
list after I provided the URL?

>and all the urls I've posted you have glossed passed.

I'll Paypal you $100 if you can show proof that you ever provided a link to
this discussion.

>Stevie I won my own vehicle

Dare I ask in what kind of contest? And is a car really that useful to a 13
year old?

>you still try to pimp out your parents ride??

No, I cashed out $22,000 in stock and bought myself a car.

>Not at all,
>my point is that, you only cite, rallying and rallying derived cars

What? You claimed very recently that Touring and Rallye are the same thing. In
addition; the Skyline, 3000GT, Eclipse GSX, 911 Turbo, S4/RS4 and S6/RS6 were
all on my list, NONE of which are rally derived.

>I know the difference last time I check the FWD Stratus
>does well

You're offically the village idiot.

>I never said it was better

This certainly isn't what you were saying before. Maybe if you backpeddle a
little harder no one will remember what was really said before.

>Stevie why is it that you can't prove your point so you start making up
>stories

The king of liars goes out on a limb, and lies about me fabricating stories and
being unable to prove my point. What a surprise.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

>that's not the argument,

Yes it is, and anyone who's read your older posts knows so. You're a terrible
liar, seek help.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

>all the companies you listed have cars that are derived from
>lessons learned from rallying

Spew, spew and spew. You're running out of bullshit.

>and two are the same company

Which 2 are the same company?

> Like I said
>that's an old campro

But it's the most recent with both an M3 and an S4 and it's less than a year
old. It's also the comparo where you claimed that that the S4 won simply for
being easier to drive, which obviously isn't the case. You lied about this
article through dozens of posts, and now you're trying to weazel your way clear
because I've nailed you.

>I've proved that the S4 was not
>compared to the best small sports sedans

Yea, it was. And according to you, the M3 is the pinnacle of performance in a
car of it;s size and type. And the S4 trounced it.

>dumb dumb, you do realize that the M3 and S4 are
>compact by EPA standard

The Environmental Protection Agency says that the M3 and S4 are compact? Please
link to that effect. And also realize that in the context of the C&D compare,
they were "middleweights".

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040410161220.14046.00000119@mb-m05.aol.com...
> >that's not the argument,
>
> Yes it is, and anyone who's read your older posts knows so. You're a
terrible
> liar, seek help.

I'm not a liar at all I'm just smarter, and a better debater than you.

Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
 

"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040403020008.03938.00000714@mb-m05.aol.com...
> >I was citing the
> >two biggest motorsport organizations.
>
> F1 is the biggest motorsport organization? You crticized me for using
Rallye
> and Touring because they aren't popular everywhere but you think F1 has
tons of fans?
>
> > dumbass I pointed out the GTR to you
> >not the other way around
>
> You used it as an example, AND I HAD TO POINT OUT THAT IT'S AWD. Go
re-read the posts you BALD FACED LIAR.
>
> >but you do realize the 300ZX was faster in TT trim
>
> HA! HA! HA! In your dreams!!!
>
> >Z06, M3, M5,
>
> All of which have been getting beaten by an RS6 in the Speed Touring
series...
>
> >Carrea GT, any Ferrari, & SLR should I keep going??
>
> Only if you want me to as well. We've been over the reasons why these cars
have RWD.
>
> >Ok, but he has never
> >crossed over to F1 has he, nope
>
> Who? Is this about your imaginary friend?
>
> > if you read car and driver or any other
> >mag
>
> If you read C&D you would have seen their comparisons involving the S4,
RS6, M3, M5, E55 AMG, C36 AMG, and S Type R where the S4 and RS6 won
outright in their respective groups. You would have also seen their better
on the limit performance. And you certainly would have seen the road tests a
few years back where the B5 based S4 became the first car in almost 10 years
to topple an M3 in a direct comparison when it beat the E36 M3 and Saab 9-3
Viggen in testing.
>
> > you will see they say, that you average Joe can go faster in the S4 but
> >for all out performance the M series and AMG is still the fastest
>
> This isn;t what any of their articles have said, but since you don't
actually
> read, I'll assume you didn't know any better. I'm guessing that by
"reading"
> what you actually mean is staring at the pictures and making up whatever
words
> you think fit nicely.
>
> > I didn't lose I've proven you wrong many times over, you have yet to
prove me wrong, I'm waiting.
>
> You're as useless here as you are in every other group I've seen you post.
> You're an angry child at best and a degenerate, uneducated troll at worst.
Be
> happy in your ignorance.

Yes I know F1 has the most fans outside the US. No Stevie you DID NOT say
the GTR was AWD I did, is this all you can say is liar, are you getting beat
that bad?? I don't have to live in a dream world go to the 300ZX and ask
there it's posted or would you not believe that. the B5 S4 had more power,
and was TT I hope it would win, it also cost more at the times. Yes they do
go to road and track or can you not find that at Wal-Mart where you work??
Stevie I've forgotten twice as much as you will every know, I'm sorry you're
to stupid to see facts and not drivel that you like to spill. I'm useful
where ever I go, sorry you're not and have no ideal what to post where ever
you post. Sorry you got that backwards, I'm smart you're not.