OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:23:31 GMT, Benjamin Smith <benjs@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
>very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
>GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
>individuality and carrying capacity.
The loss of the hatchback is what drove me away but the new Aero Combi
give me hope that the original Saab philosophy may not be gone
forever.
Kal
wrote:
>I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
>very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
>GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
>individuality and carrying capacity.
The loss of the hatchback is what drove me away but the new Aero Combi
give me hope that the original Saab philosophy may not be gone
forever.
Kal
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:23:31 GMT, Benjamin Smith <benjs@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
>very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
>GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
>individuality and carrying capacity.
The loss of the hatchback is what drove me away but the new Aero Combi
give me hope that the original Saab philosophy may not be gone
forever.
Kal
wrote:
>I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
>very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
>GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
>individuality and carrying capacity.
The loss of the hatchback is what drove me away but the new Aero Combi
give me hope that the original Saab philosophy may not be gone
forever.
Kal
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
"Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
newsnSHe.9447$6f.73@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink .net...
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they used
> to be.
Interestingly I see that the coming S class has the truck propped up on the
fenders...Bangle style.
Makes me wonder if there is some function or capability driving this less
that attractive styling queue. Room, crunch-zone, balance...I don't know but
there must be something there because the most heat BMW took was for the
"Bangle Butt" and here is Mercedes putting it on thier luxo class car.
> I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
Everyone is going with that high waist. I don't think they can meet the
highest levels of side-impact without doing so..and I think it plays into
coming designs that will have higher hood areas to meet European pedestrian
safety standards. I could be wrong, but I think there are functional reasons
we are starting to see such styling departures for cars that used to be
beautiful. I get the sense there is something in the future that these
strange designs will eventually blend with, or into.
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built with
> excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe overkill
> with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd like to see
> them go back to functional.
If you get by all the words (mags, Usenet etc) you'll find that BMW drive
better than they ever have and apart from active steering, the normal R&P on
the rest of the cars create and transmit the same level of tactile feedback
BMW has always been famous for.
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are some
> of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to me.
> Handle well, quattro is great.
I'm probably in the minoirty, but I have never thought Audi interiors were
so great. I know the mags love them, but I like simple....in the way BMW has
gone and in the way Volkswagen has been for some time. If I wanted a frilly
colorful interior I think Lexus does it best.
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
"Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
newsnSHe.9447$6f.73@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink .net...
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they used
> to be.
Interestingly I see that the coming S class has the truck propped up on the
fenders...Bangle style.
Makes me wonder if there is some function or capability driving this less
that attractive styling queue. Room, crunch-zone, balance...I don't know but
there must be something there because the most heat BMW took was for the
"Bangle Butt" and here is Mercedes putting it on thier luxo class car.
> I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
Everyone is going with that high waist. I don't think they can meet the
highest levels of side-impact without doing so..and I think it plays into
coming designs that will have higher hood areas to meet European pedestrian
safety standards. I could be wrong, but I think there are functional reasons
we are starting to see such styling departures for cars that used to be
beautiful. I get the sense there is something in the future that these
strange designs will eventually blend with, or into.
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built with
> excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe overkill
> with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd like to see
> them go back to functional.
If you get by all the words (mags, Usenet etc) you'll find that BMW drive
better than they ever have and apart from active steering, the normal R&P on
the rest of the cars create and transmit the same level of tactile feedback
BMW has always been famous for.
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are some
> of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to me.
> Handle well, quattro is great.
I'm probably in the minoirty, but I have never thought Audi interiors were
so great. I know the mags love them, but I like simple....in the way BMW has
gone and in the way Volkswagen has been for some time. If I wanted a frilly
colorful interior I think Lexus does it best.
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
"Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
newsnSHe.9447$6f.73@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink .net...
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they used
> to be.
Interestingly I see that the coming S class has the truck propped up on the
fenders...Bangle style.
Makes me wonder if there is some function or capability driving this less
that attractive styling queue. Room, crunch-zone, balance...I don't know but
there must be something there because the most heat BMW took was for the
"Bangle Butt" and here is Mercedes putting it on thier luxo class car.
> I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
Everyone is going with that high waist. I don't think they can meet the
highest levels of side-impact without doing so..and I think it plays into
coming designs that will have higher hood areas to meet European pedestrian
safety standards. I could be wrong, but I think there are functional reasons
we are starting to see such styling departures for cars that used to be
beautiful. I get the sense there is something in the future that these
strange designs will eventually blend with, or into.
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built with
> excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe overkill
> with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd like to see
> them go back to functional.
If you get by all the words (mags, Usenet etc) you'll find that BMW drive
better than they ever have and apart from active steering, the normal R&P on
the rest of the cars create and transmit the same level of tactile feedback
BMW has always been famous for.
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are some
> of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to me.
> Handle well, quattro is great.
I'm probably in the minoirty, but I have never thought Audi interiors were
so great. I know the mags love them, but I like simple....in the way BMW has
gone and in the way Volkswagen has been for some time. If I wanted a frilly
colorful interior I think Lexus does it best.
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
Benjamin Smith wrote:
> CaptainW116 wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they
> used to be. I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
> I'm surprised at how many find it beautiful. And the functional Mercedes
> of the 80s would never make such a compromised-function style design.
> Road manners are fine, some of the tanklike firmness has been softened.
>
Ditto
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built
> with excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe
> overkill with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd
> like to see them go back to functional.
>
Are they still as tempermental as 80s?
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are
> some of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to
> me. Handle well, quattro is great.
>
Used to own a 81 5000,82 5000 Turbo,80 5000 Diesel,83 4000 Coupe(miss
this one dearly).Gave up on this line,but became very proficient with
CV Joint replacement.P.S. I didn't care for the battery under the back
seat.Loved that parts were interchangable from VW though.Audi has
improved by leaps and bounds,no arguement here!!
> Volvos handle better, look better, use quality materials (with some
> exceptions), plastic was first used by Mercedes in the 80s--I remember
> the S class using plastic on the lower bodies. I think Volvo is fine,
> the s40 is very understated and goes well, so is the xc90, but I miss
> the visibility of all of the European cars of the 70s and 80s. Spotty
> reliability, especially early s80, s60, and some issues with s40s and xc90s.
>
Remember the old ad where they drove a Volvo off a elevated area and
landed on its top and the structure was not challenged?Todays Volvo can
do the same?
> Jaguar is hard to guage. Jaguar is in a rut of sorts, I don't find the S
> and X to feel like sumptuous Jags of the past. Only the XJ feels this
> way. There's more Jag components in the Ford platforms, so maybe Ford
> learned its lesson that Jag can't have too much Ford content.
>
Like to look at,scared to own!My pockets aren't that deep!
> I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
> very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
> GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
> individuality and carrying capacity.
>
ahh,always admired the old 900 Turbo,great in the snow without a doubt.
> VW's feel great, but the new Jetta looks Corolla-like in some ways,
> inside and out, and they've softened the handling a lot. New Passat
> looks like it will overtake Camry/Accord quality.
>
Why did they kill the Scirocco?
> Overall, European cars are still desirable, Japanese cars keep them on
> their toes. Also, some Japanese cars, like Infinity M45, which used to
> have pathetic interior and exterior styling, now has wow styling and
> feels more cutting-edge than the more conservative European designs.
> But, new Mercedes S looks good, BMW took chances, Volvo's s40 has some
> interesting features, Audi's A6 is wonderfully modern and integrated.
> Competition is yielding interesting designs.
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
Benjamin Smith wrote:
> CaptainW116 wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they
> used to be. I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
> I'm surprised at how many find it beautiful. And the functional Mercedes
> of the 80s would never make such a compromised-function style design.
> Road manners are fine, some of the tanklike firmness has been softened.
>
Ditto
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built
> with excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe
> overkill with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd
> like to see them go back to functional.
>
Are they still as tempermental as 80s?
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are
> some of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to
> me. Handle well, quattro is great.
>
Used to own a 81 5000,82 5000 Turbo,80 5000 Diesel,83 4000 Coupe(miss
this one dearly).Gave up on this line,but became very proficient with
CV Joint replacement.P.S. I didn't care for the battery under the back
seat.Loved that parts were interchangable from VW though.Audi has
improved by leaps and bounds,no arguement here!!
> Volvos handle better, look better, use quality materials (with some
> exceptions), plastic was first used by Mercedes in the 80s--I remember
> the S class using plastic on the lower bodies. I think Volvo is fine,
> the s40 is very understated and goes well, so is the xc90, but I miss
> the visibility of all of the European cars of the 70s and 80s. Spotty
> reliability, especially early s80, s60, and some issues with s40s and xc90s.
>
Remember the old ad where they drove a Volvo off a elevated area and
landed on its top and the structure was not challenged?Todays Volvo can
do the same?
> Jaguar is hard to guage. Jaguar is in a rut of sorts, I don't find the S
> and X to feel like sumptuous Jags of the past. Only the XJ feels this
> way. There's more Jag components in the Ford platforms, so maybe Ford
> learned its lesson that Jag can't have too much Ford content.
>
Like to look at,scared to own!My pockets aren't that deep!
> I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
> very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
> GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
> individuality and carrying capacity.
>
ahh,always admired the old 900 Turbo,great in the snow without a doubt.
> VW's feel great, but the new Jetta looks Corolla-like in some ways,
> inside and out, and they've softened the handling a lot. New Passat
> looks like it will overtake Camry/Accord quality.
>
Why did they kill the Scirocco?
> Overall, European cars are still desirable, Japanese cars keep them on
> their toes. Also, some Japanese cars, like Infinity M45, which used to
> have pathetic interior and exterior styling, now has wow styling and
> feels more cutting-edge than the more conservative European designs.
> But, new Mercedes S looks good, BMW took chances, Volvo's s40 has some
> interesting features, Audi's A6 is wonderfully modern and integrated.
> Competition is yielding interesting designs.
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
Benjamin Smith wrote:
> CaptainW116 wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they
> used to be. I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
> I'm surprised at how many find it beautiful. And the functional Mercedes
> of the 80s would never make such a compromised-function style design.
> Road manners are fine, some of the tanklike firmness has been softened.
>
Ditto
> BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built
> with excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe
> overkill with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd
> like to see them go back to functional.
>
Are they still as tempermental as 80s?
> Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are
> some of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to
> me. Handle well, quattro is great.
>
Used to own a 81 5000,82 5000 Turbo,80 5000 Diesel,83 4000 Coupe(miss
this one dearly).Gave up on this line,but became very proficient with
CV Joint replacement.P.S. I didn't care for the battery under the back
seat.Loved that parts were interchangable from VW though.Audi has
improved by leaps and bounds,no arguement here!!
> Volvos handle better, look better, use quality materials (with some
> exceptions), plastic was first used by Mercedes in the 80s--I remember
> the S class using plastic on the lower bodies. I think Volvo is fine,
> the s40 is very understated and goes well, so is the xc90, but I miss
> the visibility of all of the European cars of the 70s and 80s. Spotty
> reliability, especially early s80, s60, and some issues with s40s and xc90s.
>
Remember the old ad where they drove a Volvo off a elevated area and
landed on its top and the structure was not challenged?Todays Volvo can
do the same?
> Jaguar is hard to guage. Jaguar is in a rut of sorts, I don't find the S
> and X to feel like sumptuous Jags of the past. Only the XJ feels this
> way. There's more Jag components in the Ford platforms, so maybe Ford
> learned its lesson that Jag can't have too much Ford content.
>
Like to look at,scared to own!My pockets aren't that deep!
> I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
> very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
> GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
> individuality and carrying capacity.
>
ahh,always admired the old 900 Turbo,great in the snow without a doubt.
> VW's feel great, but the new Jetta looks Corolla-like in some ways,
> inside and out, and they've softened the handling a lot. New Passat
> looks like it will overtake Camry/Accord quality.
>
Why did they kill the Scirocco?
> Overall, European cars are still desirable, Japanese cars keep them on
> their toes. Also, some Japanese cars, like Infinity M45, which used to
> have pathetic interior and exterior styling, now has wow styling and
> feels more cutting-edge than the more conservative European designs.
> But, new Mercedes S looks good, BMW took chances, Volvo's s40 has some
> interesting features, Audi's A6 is wonderfully modern and integrated.
> Competition is yielding interesting designs.
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
CaptainW116 wrote:
> Hopefully,all those whom
> respond understand that it is not my intention to start a bash war,just
> want to hear opinions from fellow European automotive enthusiast!
>
I've long had a soft spot in my heart (and wallet) for European cars.
I've purchased two Volvos and two Volkswagens brand new over the past 20
years, yet my most recent purchase was a Honda.
Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. The
number of failure on my '96 Volvo 850, for example, have been far higher
than I expect for a premium class vehicle. Things like chronic ABS
controller failures, cupholders which constantly self destruct and trim
bits which fall apart for no good reason are all part of the experience.
I had expected to drive my '960 Volvo trouble free except for scheduled
maintenance and wear parts for at least 150,000 miles. Hah,
not.gonna.happen.com.
John
> Hopefully,all those whom
> respond understand that it is not my intention to start a bash war,just
> want to hear opinions from fellow European automotive enthusiast!
>
I've long had a soft spot in my heart (and wallet) for European cars.
I've purchased two Volvos and two Volkswagens brand new over the past 20
years, yet my most recent purchase was a Honda.
Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. The
number of failure on my '96 Volvo 850, for example, have been far higher
than I expect for a premium class vehicle. Things like chronic ABS
controller failures, cupholders which constantly self destruct and trim
bits which fall apart for no good reason are all part of the experience.
I had expected to drive my '960 Volvo trouble free except for scheduled
maintenance and wear parts for at least 150,000 miles. Hah,
not.gonna.happen.com.
John
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers
CaptainW116 wrote:
> Hopefully,all those whom
> respond understand that it is not my intention to start a bash war,just
> want to hear opinions from fellow European automotive enthusiast!
>
I've long had a soft spot in my heart (and wallet) for European cars.
I've purchased two Volvos and two Volkswagens brand new over the past 20
years, yet my most recent purchase was a Honda.
Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. The
number of failure on my '96 Volvo 850, for example, have been far higher
than I expect for a premium class vehicle. Things like chronic ABS
controller failures, cupholders which constantly self destruct and trim
bits which fall apart for no good reason are all part of the experience.
I had expected to drive my '960 Volvo trouble free except for scheduled
maintenance and wear parts for at least 150,000 miles. Hah,
not.gonna.happen.com.
John
> Hopefully,all those whom
> respond understand that it is not my intention to start a bash war,just
> want to hear opinions from fellow European automotive enthusiast!
>
I've long had a soft spot in my heart (and wallet) for European cars.
I've purchased two Volvos and two Volkswagens brand new over the past 20
years, yet my most recent purchase was a Honda.
Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. The
number of failure on my '96 Volvo 850, for example, have been far higher
than I expect for a premium class vehicle. Things like chronic ABS
controller failures, cupholders which constantly self destruct and trim
bits which fall apart for no good reason are all part of the experience.
I had expected to drive my '960 Volvo trouble free except for scheduled
maintenance and wear parts for at least 150,000 miles. Hah,
not.gonna.happen.com.
John