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Re: Newsgroup Etiquette

Andy Turner wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2005 08:57:18 -0700, gcmschemist@gmail.com wrote:
> There are probably thousands. But you get the point.
>
> The only point I see is that you just *cannot* bring yourself to
> appreciate that top-posting is a preferred and welcomed style by
> thousands upon thousands of people.

I see it just fine. They are in a small minority, and are generally
repudiated.

> Your analogies are always wrong
> because they are with practices which are either dangerous or
entirely
> unaccepted.

Heh. Driving the speed limit in the passing lane is not inherently
dangerous, and is not illegal everywhere. Posting in caps or html
might run afoul of some newsgroup charters, but in alt.* groups, most
anything goes. That does not imply that those behaviors are not rude.

It's merely a matter of degree.

> Y'see those are not driving styles that are perfectly
> accepted and welcomed by loads of other people.

LOL. You have just abdicated the argument. Those behaviors are on
display every day, by hundreds of people. And that's just in this
area. In big cities, you'll see multiples of the same rude driving
behavior.

> However top-posting
> *is* perfectly accepted and welcomed by thousands of people.

People still claim the world is flat, that the moon landings were
faked, and that the Earth is 6000 years old.

Doesn't make them any less wrong for holding sincerely onto their false
beliefs.

> If you want to compare top-posting to something else, then you have
to
> compare it to something which is also preferred by a great many
people
> - such as motorbikes versus cars.

Riding a motorbike (the mere act of riding) has never been considered
rude behavior. Your analogy fails miserably. Grasp another straw.

> >Unlike you, I support courtesy. You support "if it feels good, do
it -
> >to hell with the rest of you."
>
> Again, wrong. You do not support courtesy because you expect other
> people to adopt your preferences. It's selfish and it's ignorant.

If they were merely *my* preferences, you'd have a point. But they
were standards of behavior set long before your or I ever wrote our
first usenet posts.

> >> Since you (presumably) drive an Audi, do you expect that everyone
> >> drives one since that is your preference?
> >
> >Have I ever said that?
>
> No, it was a question <doh>.

An attempt at a strawman construction. As are the rest of the
"questions." Again, these standards exist separate of me. The
majority holds them as correct.

> However, I think you're perhaps getting the point. To make such
> requests based on your own preferences would be ridiculous.

If proper posting were merely my own preference, you'd be entirely
correct. But it is not. It is the preference of the majority, and
existed previous to MS Outlook and other wrongly-top-post-default
programs.

> I'm glad
> to see that in at least some walks of life, you're happy to accept
the
> choices other people make and don't expect them to make the same
> choices as you.

In matters of ettiquette, I *do* expect people to make the same
choices. That's how a community gets along. I don't clog the passing
lane, and I expect my fellow drivers to do the same. I use center turn
lanes, don't swing wide to turn right, don't left turn into the far
right lane, and all sorts of other driving behavior that helps everyone
(including me) get where they are going with the least amount of
hassle.

> >It speaks volumes that you are running around a.a.a
>
> Running around?! LOL!

A figure of speech. Finding all of my posts and humping them to pound
your chest.

> > humping my posts trying to goad me into a flamewar.
>
> This is not about a flamewar (have I flamed you *at all*?)

Sure, if name-calling or other ad hominem commentary can be called
flaming.

> this is
> merely trying to help you adjust your self-centered attitude with
> regard to expecting everyone else to adopt your preferences.

Again, they are not merely *my* preferences.

>
> > Find another hobby.
>
> I would suggest the same WRT your top-post whining. If you hadn't
> decided to start moaning about it, I wouldn't be responding now would
> I..

So, you can't control your own posting. Sad.

E.P.

Re: Newsgroup Etiquette

Andy Turner wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2005 13:01:37 -0700, gcmschemist@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Ronny wrote:
> >> "charles blassberg" <blassberg@email.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3bn87uF6hcd95U1@individual.net...
> >> > Can we pls keep on topic within a thread?
> >>
> >> This is usenet, offtopic is part of the fun time, get used to it.
> >
> >And what's even more humorous is that the meta-discussion couldn't
just
> >reside in the original thread - no, perish the thought - it had to
> >spawn TWO new threads, including this one! On-topic, LOL.
> >
> >Let's all start posting in all-caps, HTML, with attached binaries.
> >After all, any preference is valid, right?
>
> If a preference works for a great many people (as top-posting does),
> then it must be valid.

Then driving the speed limit in the passing lane is valid. As is
almost universal cell phone use in public.

> I don't see thousands of people posting in
> all-caps. Your analogy therefore is not valid.

It's a preference, isn't it? Just a matter of degree.

> Do you think all usenet posts should be in English, since that is
your
> preferred language?

In groups that are customarily English, yes. But I do see your
strawman attempt.

E.P.

Re: Newsgroup Etiquette

In message <de9i51tcb1qq82psktn4j5ebpta7658j5p@4ax.com>
Andy Turner <andyt@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:40:13 +0200, Arne <user@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >Little guideness (also in my sig):
> >http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
>
> These are only someone's opinions put down in HTML. Bear this in mind.

Really? Is that why it quotes guidelines from Microsoft and from
RFC1855?

--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')

Re: Newsgroup Etiquette

Andy Turner wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2005 20:50:17 -0700, gcmschemist@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Mike Buckley wrote:
> >> Why not just be an individualist and follow your own inclination,
> >rather
> >> than what the net police tell you??
> >>
> >
> >Yeah - when your cell rings in a movie theater, go ahead and answer,
> >then have a long, loud conversation. After all, whatever *you* want
is
> >the most important thing.
>
> As Jules points out, these are not comparable situations.

Jules is wrong, and so are you. The situations are only a matter of
degree.

There are plenty of rude cell phone behaviors, this one is just one
most folks can agree on. But it's merely a preference, and the small
minority prefers it, so by your logic, it's acceptable.

> Remember
> that top-posting is perfectly acceptable to and is the preferred
style
> for a great many people.

Those who don't know any better, those who are purposefully rude, or
those who read everything from the last page to the first page - yup,
that's true.

> That's what makes it a preference.

See the cell phone references above. Dream up some driving ones. Like
this:

You're left turning out of a business onto a five-lane street. (Two
lanes in either direction and a turn lane.) The car in front of you is
also turning left. You wait and wait and wait - the turn lane is
clear, the traffic from the right is clear, and the other guy isn't
going. Yup, that's right, when he finally goes, it's because traffic
is clear in both directions. He's held you up because of his
preference. You, of course, celebrate his preference, right?

> >Or, like most of the rest of us learned before first grade, we could
> >imagine that the world does not revolve around me, me, me.
>
> Indeed it doesn't and therefore you can't expect everyone to adopt
> *your* preferences.

Oh, but if it were just *my* preference, I wouldn't be having this
conversation with you. But it isn't. The netiquette has existed for
quite some time before either one of us entered usenet. As I said
before, if you can find anywhere even remotely official-looking that
supports top-posting as a preferred method, go ahead and link it.
History *and* popular opinion stand against you.

E.P.

Re: Newsgroup Etiquette