Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
10-07-2008, 03:47 PM
#1
Audi Forum - Posts like an A3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 92
Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
Now that my baby's engine is as good as new and purring like a Bengal tiger,
i've pretty much decided what i want to do as far as chipping to get the most boost & power i can from the stock turbo. Did my research as far as 'chip' alternatives, and so far i'm not too impressed.
From what i've seen, most of the benefit of the chipped ECU route comes from allowing turbo to deliver on its full potential in well managed way, but this may involve simply disabling some of the safeguards built into the ECU, which worries me. There are some benefits to improved fueling for power, but this it seems stems from using fixed fuel maps, which may be fine for a race car but this also implies that the ECU's learning /adaptation is disabled at least in part which has negative consequence i'm not thrilled about. Plus these things a expensive for what you get imho.
The other "cheap and dirty" option of "diode" mod and/or manual boost controller seems too risky for me, because it can allow boost to get dangerously high, and then at best your ECU goes into limp mode or at worst you blow your engine.
It seems to me the best thing for my situation would be to have a separate electronic boost controller that monitors and controls boost closed-loop, that doesn't interfere with the ECU and allows me to leave that stock, since it already does a fine job of managing fueling and protecting the engine from self-destruction in just about any situation. All i really need is to make sure to get the most air i can into the engine and let the stock ECU do its majic (though bigger injectors and/or fuel pressure boost and improved intercooler will be required in any case).
This controller should also support the option to tap into the engine harness and monitor some of the other engine vitals directly at the sensor outputs like MAF, intake temp, crank position (RPM) throttle position, in order to limit or reduce boost when the engine is getting out of its Safe Operating Area.
I'd also like this controller to be aware of the turbo's compressor map, and be able to program several choices of boost map to pick from while driving.
This way the controller would be able to manage boost of a hot turbo extremely aggressively while making sure it never goes over the surge line, essentially limiting boost *just* below it.
I've looked around, and cant find anything like this. Pity. guess i'll just have to make one myself. thats ok, I'm a veteran electronics designer, and relatively speaking, this is a pretty easy project.
So why am i telling everyone my intention before even starting?
well, i'd really like to know if others out there feel like me and might be interested in such a device. if so, i'd really like your inputs on some of the features, so i can design something that is useful for others as well. Plus if there is a market for such a thing, i might be temped to sell it commercially, and if i'm going to consider doing that, then i would design it a little different to make it more suitable for automated production. plus i will need a few courageous volunteers for beta testers. but now I'm getting a little too far ahead of myself.
So.... any interest folks?
PS at fist guesstimate, i figure a basic version (including in-dash digital boost gauge & control) might be worth about $250. dont hold me to that though....it might be much less!
i've pretty much decided what i want to do as far as chipping to get the most boost & power i can from the stock turbo. Did my research as far as 'chip' alternatives, and so far i'm not too impressed.
From what i've seen, most of the benefit of the chipped ECU route comes from allowing turbo to deliver on its full potential in well managed way, but this may involve simply disabling some of the safeguards built into the ECU, which worries me. There are some benefits to improved fueling for power, but this it seems stems from using fixed fuel maps, which may be fine for a race car but this also implies that the ECU's learning /adaptation is disabled at least in part which has negative consequence i'm not thrilled about. Plus these things a expensive for what you get imho.
The other "cheap and dirty" option of "diode" mod and/or manual boost controller seems too risky for me, because it can allow boost to get dangerously high, and then at best your ECU goes into limp mode or at worst you blow your engine.
It seems to me the best thing for my situation would be to have a separate electronic boost controller that monitors and controls boost closed-loop, that doesn't interfere with the ECU and allows me to leave that stock, since it already does a fine job of managing fueling and protecting the engine from self-destruction in just about any situation. All i really need is to make sure to get the most air i can into the engine and let the stock ECU do its majic (though bigger injectors and/or fuel pressure boost and improved intercooler will be required in any case).
This controller should also support the option to tap into the engine harness and monitor some of the other engine vitals directly at the sensor outputs like MAF, intake temp, crank position (RPM) throttle position, in order to limit or reduce boost when the engine is getting out of its Safe Operating Area.
I'd also like this controller to be aware of the turbo's compressor map, and be able to program several choices of boost map to pick from while driving.
This way the controller would be able to manage boost of a hot turbo extremely aggressively while making sure it never goes over the surge line, essentially limiting boost *just* below it.
I've looked around, and cant find anything like this. Pity. guess i'll just have to make one myself. thats ok, I'm a veteran electronics designer, and relatively speaking, this is a pretty easy project.
So why am i telling everyone my intention before even starting?
well, i'd really like to know if others out there feel like me and might be interested in such a device. if so, i'd really like your inputs on some of the features, so i can design something that is useful for others as well. Plus if there is a market for such a thing, i might be temped to sell it commercially, and if i'm going to consider doing that, then i would design it a little different to make it more suitable for automated production. plus i will need a few courageous volunteers for beta testers. but now I'm getting a little too far ahead of myself.
So.... any interest folks?
PS at fist guesstimate, i figure a basic version (including in-dash digital boost gauge & control) might be worth about $250. dont hold me to that though....it might be much less!
Last edited by frob; 10-09-2008 at 10:04 AM.
10-09-2008, 10:04 AM
#2
Audi Forum - Posts like an A3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 92
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
No comments yet? don't be shy....
I've selected the basic platform i'll be using for development, its quite neat actually:
LPC-Stick
lots of features i wont need till much later, but its nice to know i wont need to change for something more powerful when i need it. And its from Germany so my Audi should not object to it
First step is to hook this up to the existing sensors and N75 on the engine harness in "stealth" mode to record a baseline (as a datalogger) to compare with later and to better understand the specifics of the ECU operation. I'm also adding a few new pressure and temperature sensors to better monitor turbo, DV, and intercooler performance. One of the first thing i'll do before i can significantly increase boost levels is to add an FMIC, and it will be interesting to see real hard data on how well the stock IC actually works compared to different aftermarket intercooler setups.
I've selected the basic platform i'll be using for development, its quite neat actually:
LPC-Stick
lots of features i wont need till much later, but its nice to know i wont need to change for something more powerful when i need it. And its from Germany so my Audi should not object to it
First step is to hook this up to the existing sensors and N75 on the engine harness in "stealth" mode to record a baseline (as a datalogger) to compare with later and to better understand the specifics of the ECU operation. I'm also adding a few new pressure and temperature sensors to better monitor turbo, DV, and intercooler performance. One of the first thing i'll do before i can significantly increase boost levels is to add an FMIC, and it will be interesting to see real hard data on how well the stock IC actually works compared to different aftermarket intercooler setups.
10-16-2008, 12:42 AM
#3
Audi Forum - Posts like an A1
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: North Shore
Posts: 27
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
I'm interested - obviously your electrical expertice (or at least confidence) is much greater than mine. I look forward to hearing how you make out. I did the TT injectors and APR stage I chip 6 months ago and while I like the power I'm definately not maried to the concept. If you think there is a better way to get the performance than I'm listening. Tell me more?
10-16-2008, 06:55 AM
#4
Audi Forum - Posts like an A3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 92
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
I'm interested - obviously your electrical expertise (or at least confidence) is much greater than mine. I look forward to hearing how you make out. I did the TT injectors and APR stage I chip 6 months ago and while I like the power I'm definitely not married to the concept. If you think there is a better way to get the performance than I'm listening. Tell me more?Although the "chipped" approach is very popular, works well and may be a great solution for most people, personally i prefer an approach that doesn't require hacking into the guts of the stock ecu, that provides much greater user control and feedback on engine functions and performance, and that works just as well on *any* EFI engine, regardless of the version of ECU it uses.
This may take quite a long time to complete, as i have many other projects on the go and for the first part it is purely a "learning" platform to study how the stock ECU operates, and develop a much improved digital engine monitoring display so as i'm driving i can see at a glance exactly what is going on and if any problems are happening, and log it for even more detailed investigation/analysis later if & when needed.
I'm very interested in collecting data on such things as intercooler efficiency and compare for example the actual performance difference between the stock one and several configurations of available aftermaket units, for example, ebay FMIC's vs water-air.
The other thing i'd really like to get out of this as an engine monitor is to provide an accurate real-time BHP display, so we can immediately see the real bottom line impact of each incremental tweak and add-on without having to resort to a full dyno run. Essentially this will give you a permanent, in-dash real-time dyno display.
The second part, actually controlling the turbo boost, should be very easy to do once the engine data is fully assimilated and understood.
If i get to that point and it looks like it's working really well, I'll assemble a handful of units to offer for others to try out, and if feedback is good I'll keep making them.
Eventually, i see this evolving into a complete "bolt-on" ECU that controls all essential engine functions - injectors, ignition, and everything else, but initially it will support 2 flavors - cheap, limited display boost controller, and one with full engine monitor display and extensive controls.
At this point, I've pretty much determined what the under-hood stuff needs to be.
Now I'm pondering what kind of in-cabin display and controls it needs to have.
Although i'm leaning towards a small color graphic LCD touch panel, i also want to support a "low cost" option with only a numeric or text LCD, LED or similar display.
I'm thinking i might compromise and start with a low cost monochrome 3" 128x64 LCD graphic display with a few separate buttons for control, and a red LED backlight so it complements my existing in-dash displays.
Any thoughts on that?
This would connect to the controller using a simple 4-wire bus, which would allow several small control panels to be daisy-chained and assigned different functions if desired.
In the mean time i'm going to temporarily install a couple of small $10 panel meters to directly monitor the various engine sensors. this will help confirm the electrical signal ranges and any filtering/ conditioning needed for my controller inputs.
05-10-2009, 12:13 PM
#6
Audi Forum - Posts like an A4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 114
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
Hey man, I would definitely be interested! It sounds like you've really got a handle on what needs to be in it.
Let me know if I can help. You can also PM me your email if you'd like.
Andrew
Let me know if I can help. You can also PM me your email if you'd like.
Andrew
05-18-2009, 05:16 PM
#7
Audi Forum - Posts like an S5
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 476
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
hmm sounds like an interesting project! I would definetly be interested to see what comes from this. I wouldnt mind beta testing this baby also.
Frob - Red led are a way to go seeing as how most all of the audi b5 come stock with red led ...everywhere. Lol i had to buy a JVC deck simply because it can glow red after color tweaking hahah
An idea to have a "bolt on" ECU is pretty interesting. having a real time display is also great. But is this ECU of yours going to be adaptable? for example lets say after installation i ugrade....CA intake to something better. How would i reprogram the addon ECU?
The touch display sounds like a great idea, although unforunatly i dont really see where you could mount it. Color LCD would be cool, but as far as the touch goes, i imagine the LCD needing to be pretty big to be fuctional with for easy operation, ultimatly boosting up the cost. I think personally color led or simple color LCD would be sufficient enough. Making this into a pillar pod would also be pretty cool :P
If anything, making a color touch display fit a side air duct. I wouldnt mid sacrificing one of them for this mod. But i would imagine this be a very hard installation to do.
Frob - Red led are a way to go seeing as how most all of the audi b5 come stock with red led ...everywhere. Lol i had to buy a JVC deck simply because it can glow red after color tweaking hahah
An idea to have a "bolt on" ECU is pretty interesting. having a real time display is also great. But is this ECU of yours going to be adaptable? for example lets say after installation i ugrade....CA intake to something better. How would i reprogram the addon ECU?
The touch display sounds like a great idea, although unforunatly i dont really see where you could mount it. Color LCD would be cool, but as far as the touch goes, i imagine the LCD needing to be pretty big to be fuctional with for easy operation, ultimatly boosting up the cost. I think personally color led or simple color LCD would be sufficient enough. Making this into a pillar pod would also be pretty cool :P
If anything, making a color touch display fit a side air duct. I wouldnt mid sacrificing one of them for this mod. But i would imagine this be a very hard installation to do.
06-18-2009, 01:13 AM
#9
Audi Forum - Posts like an A5
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 353
Re: Better alternative to chipped ECU's for a turbo engine
Now that my baby's engine is as good as new and purring like a Bengal tiger,
i've pretty much decided what i want to do as far as chipping to get the most boost & power i can from the stock turbo. Did my research as far as 'chip' alternatives, and so far i'm not too impressed.
From what i've seen, most of the benefit of the chipped ECU route comes from allowing turbo to deliver on its full potential in well managed way, but this may involve simply disabling some of the safeguards built into the ECU, which worries me. There are some benefits to improved fueling for power, but this it seems stems from using fixed fuel maps, which may be fine for a race car but this also implies that the ECU's learning /adaptation is disabled at least in part which has negative consequence i'm not thrilled about. Plus these things a expensive for what you get imho.
The other "cheap and dirty" option of "diode" mod and/or manual boost controller seems too risky for me, because it can allow boost to get dangerously high, and then at best your ECU goes into limp mode or at worst you blow your engine.
It seems to me the best thing for my situation would be to have a separate electronic boost controller that monitors and controls boost closed-loop, that doesn't interfere with the ECU and allows me to leave that stock, since it already does a fine job of managing fueling and protecting the engine from self-destruction in just about any situation. All i really need is to make sure to get the most air i can into the engine and let the stock ECU do its majic (though bigger injectors and/or fuel pressure boost and improved intercooler will be required in any case).
This controller should also support the option to tap into the engine harness and monitor some of the other engine vitals directly at the sensor outputs like MAF, intake temp, crank position (RPM) throttle position, in order to limit or reduce boost when the engine is getting out of its Safe Operating Area.
I'd also like this controller to be aware of the turbo's compressor map, and be able to program several choices of boost map to pick from while driving.
This way the controller would be able to manage boost of a hot turbo extremely aggressively while making sure it never goes over the surge line, essentially limiting boost *just* below it.
I've looked around, and cant find anything like this. Pity. guess i'll just have to make one myself. thats ok, I'm a veteran electronics designer, and relatively speaking, this is a pretty easy project.
So why am i telling everyone my intention before even starting?
well, i'd really like to know if others out there feel like me and might be interested in such a device. if so, i'd really like your inputs on some of the features, so i can design something that is useful for others as well. Plus if there is a market for such a thing, i might be temped to sell it commercially, and if i'm going to consider doing that, then i would design it a little different to make it more suitable for automated production. plus i will need a few courageous volunteers for beta testers. but now I'm getting a little too far ahead of myself.
So.... any interest folks?
PS at fist guesstimate, i figure a basic version (including in-dash digital boost gauge & control) might be worth about $250. dont hold me to that though....it might be much less!
i've pretty much decided what i want to do as far as chipping to get the most boost & power i can from the stock turbo. Did my research as far as 'chip' alternatives, and so far i'm not too impressed.
From what i've seen, most of the benefit of the chipped ECU route comes from allowing turbo to deliver on its full potential in well managed way, but this may involve simply disabling some of the safeguards built into the ECU, which worries me. There are some benefits to improved fueling for power, but this it seems stems from using fixed fuel maps, which may be fine for a race car but this also implies that the ECU's learning /adaptation is disabled at least in part which has negative consequence i'm not thrilled about. Plus these things a expensive for what you get imho.
The other "cheap and dirty" option of "diode" mod and/or manual boost controller seems too risky for me, because it can allow boost to get dangerously high, and then at best your ECU goes into limp mode or at worst you blow your engine.
It seems to me the best thing for my situation would be to have a separate electronic boost controller that monitors and controls boost closed-loop, that doesn't interfere with the ECU and allows me to leave that stock, since it already does a fine job of managing fueling and protecting the engine from self-destruction in just about any situation. All i really need is to make sure to get the most air i can into the engine and let the stock ECU do its majic (though bigger injectors and/or fuel pressure boost and improved intercooler will be required in any case).
This controller should also support the option to tap into the engine harness and monitor some of the other engine vitals directly at the sensor outputs like MAF, intake temp, crank position (RPM) throttle position, in order to limit or reduce boost when the engine is getting out of its Safe Operating Area.
I'd also like this controller to be aware of the turbo's compressor map, and be able to program several choices of boost map to pick from while driving.
This way the controller would be able to manage boost of a hot turbo extremely aggressively while making sure it never goes over the surge line, essentially limiting boost *just* below it.
I've looked around, and cant find anything like this. Pity. guess i'll just have to make one myself. thats ok, I'm a veteran electronics designer, and relatively speaking, this is a pretty easy project.
So why am i telling everyone my intention before even starting?
well, i'd really like to know if others out there feel like me and might be interested in such a device. if so, i'd really like your inputs on some of the features, so i can design something that is useful for others as well. Plus if there is a market for such a thing, i might be temped to sell it commercially, and if i'm going to consider doing that, then i would design it a little different to make it more suitable for automated production. plus i will need a few courageous volunteers for beta testers. but now I'm getting a little too far ahead of myself.
So.... any interest folks?
PS at fist guesstimate, i figure a basic version (including in-dash digital boost gauge & control) might be worth about $250. dont hold me to that though....it might be much less!
