Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
Wolfgang Pawlinetz <w.pawlinetz@a1.net> writes:
> R@L schrieb:
>
> >Hear hear!
>
> >I thought I was they only one knowing that the best tires should be in the
> >rear.
> >Now I know there's at least someone else.
>
> Can you elaborate?
>
> Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
> driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
> just roll along. What's the error here?
If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
tires at the back you would know. The tires with the least grip will
try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
--
Børge Berg-Olsen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+47 90 62 71 78 DoD#2101, DoDRT#017, NIC#015, PJ#006, OGM#007
azoth@dod.no, '93 Audi 100 2.3E Ubesudlet: Aldri eid en J&%#PS
> R@L schrieb:
>
> >Hear hear!
>
> >I thought I was they only one knowing that the best tires should be in the
> >rear.
> >Now I know there's at least someone else.
>
> Can you elaborate?
>
> Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
> driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
> just roll along. What's the error here?
If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
tires at the back you would know. The tires with the least grip will
try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
--
Børge Berg-Olsen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+47 90 62 71 78 DoD#2101, DoDRT#017, NIC#015, PJ#006, OGM#007
azoth@dod.no, '93 Audi 100 2.3E Ubesudlet: Aldri eid en J&%#PS
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
BBO wrote:
>If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
>tires at the back you would know.
Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
(and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
tarmac.
I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
So, what are you guys doing differently?
>The tires with the least grip will
>try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
>If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
>tires at the back you would know.
Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
(and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
tarmac.
I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
So, what are you guys doing differently?
>The tires with the least grip will
>try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
BBO wrote:
>If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
>tires at the back you would know.
Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
(and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
tarmac.
I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
So, what are you guys doing differently?
>The tires with the least grip will
>try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
>If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
>tires at the back you would know.
Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
(and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
tarmac.
I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
So, what are you guys doing differently?
>The tires with the least grip will
>try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:33:16 +0200, Wolfgang Pawlinetz <w.pawlinetz@a1.net>
wrote:
> BBO wrote:
>
> >If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
> >tires at the back you would know.
>
> Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
> (and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
> tarmac.
>
> I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
>
> But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
>
> So, what are you guys doing differently?
>
> >The tires with the least grip will
> >try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
>
> Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
> to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
>
> Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Wolfgang
If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
unexpected obstacle, etc.)
A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
wrote:
> BBO wrote:
>
> >If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
> >tires at the back you would know.
>
> Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
> (and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
> tarmac.
>
> I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
>
> But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
>
> So, what are you guys doing differently?
>
> >The tires with the least grip will
> >try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
>
> Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
> to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
>
> Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Wolfgang
If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
unexpected obstacle, etc.)
A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:33:16 +0200, Wolfgang Pawlinetz <w.pawlinetz@a1.net>
wrote:
> BBO wrote:
>
> >If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
> >tires at the back you would know.
>
> Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
> (and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
> tarmac.
>
> I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
>
> But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
>
> So, what are you guys doing differently?
>
> >The tires with the least grip will
> >try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
>
> Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
> to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
>
> Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Wolfgang
If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
unexpected obstacle, etc.)
A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
wrote:
> BBO wrote:
>
> >If you have ever tried to break hard, really hard, with badly worn
> >tires at the back you would know.
>
> Sure did. As hard as it would go. On parking lots I did lots of try
> (and error ) things. On gravel and on snow as well as on dry
> tarmac.
>
> I never had the problem that on my front driven A6 the rear broke out.
>
> But I often had the problem that the car would understeer.
>
> So, what are you guys doing differently?
>
> >The tires with the least grip will
> >try to get in front of the tires with the best grip...
>
> Maybe I change tires too early to see that. Mine go when they are down
> to 2 mm for summer and less then 3 to 4 on winter tires.
>
> Maybe I'm also OT as this is a quattro thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Wolfgang
If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
unexpected obstacle, etc.)
A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
Jay Somerset schrieb:
>If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
>with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
>probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
>will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
>
>However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
>or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
>fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
>around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
>unexpected obstacle, etc.)
This is entirely true for a non ABS car. But wrong for an Audi (or any
other car wit ABS). BTDT myself more then once. We trained that on a 3
day handling/track training class and with the ABS on a full power
brake with the left side on perfect race tarmac and the right side on
deliberately slippery surface (a special surface which gets slippery
like ice when wettened) it only required the slightest bit of
countersteer, and I mean just a bit, to keep a straight line. All cars
without ABS went off the track unless the would open the brakes,
re-align and hit the brakes hard again.
>A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
>corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
>not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
Yep. Agreed.
>While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
>presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
>driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
Hmmm.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
>If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
>with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
>probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
>will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
>
>However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
>or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
>fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
>around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
>unexpected obstacle, etc.)
This is entirely true for a non ABS car. But wrong for an Audi (or any
other car wit ABS). BTDT myself more then once. We trained that on a 3
day handling/track training class and with the ABS on a full power
brake with the left side on perfect race tarmac and the right side on
deliberately slippery surface (a special surface which gets slippery
like ice when wettened) it only required the slightest bit of
countersteer, and I mean just a bit, to keep a straight line. All cars
without ABS went off the track unless the would open the brakes,
re-align and hit the brakes hard again.
>A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
>corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
>not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
Yep. Agreed.
>While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
>presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
>driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
Hmmm.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
Jay Somerset schrieb:
>If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
>with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
>probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
>will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
>
>However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
>or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
>fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
>around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
>unexpected obstacle, etc.)
This is entirely true for a non ABS car. But wrong for an Audi (or any
other car wit ABS). BTDT myself more then once. We trained that on a 3
day handling/track training class and with the ABS on a full power
brake with the left side on perfect race tarmac and the right side on
deliberately slippery surface (a special surface which gets slippery
like ice when wettened) it only required the slightest bit of
countersteer, and I mean just a bit, to keep a straight line. All cars
without ABS went off the track unless the would open the brakes,
re-align and hit the brakes hard again.
>A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
>corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
>not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
Yep. Agreed.
>While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
>presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
>driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
Hmmm.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
>If you are able to brake in a completely straight line, on a smooth surface,
>with absolutely constant coefficient of friction, then the rear tires will
>probably stay in line behind the front. Deviations from this ideal condition
>will require some quick reaction on the steering to keep the car straight.
>
>However, if you hit a patch on the road with appreciably different traction,
>or if the right wheels encounter a different situation thasn the left, even
>fast steering reaction may not be enough to prevent the rear from coming
>around. Or if you are turning and still have to slow down (bad planning;
>unexpected obstacle, etc.)
This is entirely true for a non ABS car. But wrong for an Audi (or any
other car wit ABS). BTDT myself more then once. We trained that on a 3
day handling/track training class and with the ABS on a full power
brake with the left side on perfect race tarmac and the right side on
deliberately slippery surface (a special surface which gets slippery
like ice when wettened) it only required the slightest bit of
countersteer, and I mean just a bit, to keep a straight line. All cars
without ABS went off the track unless the would open the brakes,
re-align and hit the brakes hard again.
>A slight bit of understeer is not bad -- you just have to approach your
>corners a bit differently than if you had oversteer. A lot of understeer is
>not good -- neither is a lot of oversteer.
Yep. Agreed.
>While a "expert driver" might get away with an oversteering car, the
>presciption to put the better tires on the rear is proper for "the average
>driver" and certainly safest for those with no clue at all.
Hmmm.
Regards
Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
Wolfgang writes:
>Can you elaborate?
>
>Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
>driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
>just roll along. What's the error here?
I have to agree with Wolfgang. The braking system is biased towards the front
wheels. They do most of the stopping. Plus, there is no way the rear end is
going to come around regardless of the tire wear unless the rear locks up first
which isn't going to happen on any car I've ever driven.
I've driven school cars with "bologna skins" on both the front and the rear
with fwd cars. We called them bologna skins because they were nearly bald.
But, they gave more of a foot print on the track and were better performers
than *new* tires. Of course rain is another matter when tire treads are
involved. I wouldn't want to drive a slick tire (bologna skin) in the rain,
especially on the front.
I've owned Quattros for more than 20 years and the tires always wear the same.
I rotate on a regular basis (every 10k miles), so the tires wear evenly. In
fact, I've never seen a Quattro with tires that weren't worn evenly.
Well maintained (rotation and inflation) tires are essential to good safety and
performance on any car, yet it is often the most overlooked item on the car. I
see even cop cars with underinflated tires just begging to come off the wheel
in an emergency high speed maneuver.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>Can you elaborate?
>
>Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
>driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
>just roll along. What's the error here?
I have to agree with Wolfgang. The braking system is biased towards the front
wheels. They do most of the stopping. Plus, there is no way the rear end is
going to come around regardless of the tire wear unless the rear locks up first
which isn't going to happen on any car I've ever driven.
I've driven school cars with "bologna skins" on both the front and the rear
with fwd cars. We called them bologna skins because they were nearly bald.
But, they gave more of a foot print on the track and were better performers
than *new* tires. Of course rain is another matter when tire treads are
involved. I wouldn't want to drive a slick tire (bologna skin) in the rain,
especially on the front.
I've owned Quattros for more than 20 years and the tires always wear the same.
I rotate on a regular basis (every 10k miles), so the tires wear evenly. In
fact, I've never seen a Quattro with tires that weren't worn evenly.
Well maintained (rotation and inflation) tires are essential to good safety and
performance on any car, yet it is often the most overlooked item on the car. I
see even cop cars with underinflated tires just begging to come off the wheel
in an emergency high speed maneuver.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
Wolfgang writes:
>Can you elaborate?
>
>Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
>driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
>just roll along. What's the error here?
I have to agree with Wolfgang. The braking system is biased towards the front
wheels. They do most of the stopping. Plus, there is no way the rear end is
going to come around regardless of the tire wear unless the rear locks up first
which isn't going to happen on any car I've ever driven.
I've driven school cars with "bologna skins" on both the front and the rear
with fwd cars. We called them bologna skins because they were nearly bald.
But, they gave more of a foot print on the track and were better performers
than *new* tires. Of course rain is another matter when tire treads are
involved. I wouldn't want to drive a slick tire (bologna skin) in the rain,
especially on the front.
I've owned Quattros for more than 20 years and the tires always wear the same.
I rotate on a regular basis (every 10k miles), so the tires wear evenly. In
fact, I've never seen a Quattro with tires that weren't worn evenly.
Well maintained (rotation and inflation) tires are essential to good safety and
performance on any car, yet it is often the most overlooked item on the car. I
see even cop cars with underinflated tires just begging to come off the wheel
in an emergency high speed maneuver.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>Can you elaborate?
>
>Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
>driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
>just roll along. What's the error here?
I have to agree with Wolfgang. The braking system is biased towards the front
wheels. They do most of the stopping. Plus, there is no way the rear end is
going to come around regardless of the tire wear unless the rear locks up first
which isn't going to happen on any car I've ever driven.
I've driven school cars with "bologna skins" on both the front and the rear
with fwd cars. We called them bologna skins because they were nearly bald.
But, they gave more of a foot print on the track and were better performers
than *new* tires. Of course rain is another matter when tire treads are
involved. I wouldn't want to drive a slick tire (bologna skin) in the rain,
especially on the front.
I've owned Quattros for more than 20 years and the tires always wear the same.
I rotate on a regular basis (every 10k miles), so the tires wear evenly. In
fact, I've never seen a Quattro with tires that weren't worn evenly.
Well maintained (rotation and inflation) tires are essential to good safety and
performance on any car, yet it is often the most overlooked item on the car. I
see even cop cars with underinflated tires just begging to come off the wheel
in an emergency high speed maneuver.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow Chains in Audi A6 Quattro
"Wolfgang Pawlinetz" <w.pawlinetz@a1.net> schreef in bericht
newsql1g05hbq674deuc86ugk8bub3m4j89gh@4ax.com...
> R@L schrieb:
>
> >Hear hear!
>
> >I thought I was they only one knowing that the best tires should be in
the
> >rear.
> >Now I know there's at least someone else.
>
> Can you elaborate?
>
> Why would it be better to have less friction in the front on a front
> driven car? That supports understeering, doesn't it? The rear wheels
> just roll along. What's the error here?
I believe it was when you're breaking into a slippery corner, it's for the
average driver *easier* to escape from an understear (rear-tyres ok) then
from an oversteer-situation (rear-tyres too 'slick').
The way the car goes with the least grip on the front will go in a straight
line, when the least grip is on the back, the car will spin.
--
Dan