JP Roberts

Thanks for an excellent post, Aaron, but the object of tuning as far as I am
concerned is to make a good value car - take an 1.8T for example - into a
little beast eater. So, with Audi staying away from turbos except in the
RS's we can only anticipate the decline of a reasonably-priced Audi empire.


Aaron Daniel <adaniel@triad.rr.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
LYIKa.109606$nr.6514477@twister.southeast.rr.com.. .
>
> "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> news:bdf87p$1kd$1@news.ya.com...
> > > > The fact still remains that being the new S4 a good year and a half
> > newer
> > > > than the M3, they should have come up with something like 40 or 50
> more
> > > > Horses, at least in order to save face
> > >
> > > What do appearances matter when designing a performance car? You
> > > design to a design goal and price point.
> >
> > Far from the point I'm making, I'm saying they should have given it a
> power
> > edge over its BMW competitor.
> >
> > > > since at Euro 60,000 they are no
> > > > bargain.
> > >
> > > Performance car buyers aren't looking for a bargain, but for a
> > > performance car.
> >
> > What I'm saying - if you can still read between the lines, which I
doubt -
> > is that the car is clearly overpriced considering you will be stuck at
344
> > HP with rather a lot of weight.
> >
> > > > Just remember the RS6 is 100k and is a hell lot more of a car which
> > > > can easily be tuned to the 500-region horseriding land.
> > >
> > > Not without spending a bit over the purchase price, which is 60%
> > > higher than the S4! "Oh, if I'm going to spend EU60k, I might as well
> > > spend EU1ook+?" What an idiotic suggestion.
> >
> > This is no idiotic suggestion at all, maybe it is by your standards, but
> > here in Europe people who can afford 60,000 can also afford 100,000, but
> > maybe you can elaborate on your point from an American perspective - I
> hear
> > a lot of people go leasing in the US.
> >
> > > > In my modest opinion, they are going to sell very few of the new S4s
> and
> > > > that's precisely because they offer little if no tunability at all.
> > >
> > > LOL. You've been wrong about most other stuff, so I'm sure Audi will
> > > be delighted with your "prediction."
> >
> > I do not know that I've been wrong about anything, but if you're
planning
> to
> > buy an S4, let me tell you something: A 225 HP S3 tuned to 300 HP - 450
Nm
> > torque - will beat you every time, everywhere, and at a much cheaper
price
> > and petrol expenditure and maintenance.
> >
> > JP Roberts
> >
> >
>
> I don't mean to get in the middle here. However, I understand that Audi
has
> redesigned their model line for the future. I may be buying into a line of
> BS that has propogated to many media outlets. As I understand it Audi will
> have the "normal" A versions of each model line, then the "normal sport" S
> versions of the certain lines and finally "RennSport" RS versions of
certain
> lines which will be designed and produced by their new tuning division
> "Quattro, Gmbh". That would mean we may see something like A4, S4 & RS4
> models in the future and A6, S6 and RS6 models of the next version of the
A6
> body.
>
> As I understand it the S models will be powered by normally aspirated high
> output engines and the RS models will have higher output engines. It seems
> logical that we may see an RS4 in the future with a biturbo 4.3l V8.
Another
> piece I've read is that Audi is considering using the V10 from the
> Lamborghini Gallardo in the next S6 and the biturbo version of that engine
> (similar to the one in the Nuvolari concept car) in the RS6.
>
> Obviously, nothing that I've read is written in stone but I believe the
idea
> is that the RS versions of future Audi cars will be the "tuner's delight"
> versions that will be competing with BMWs M series cars. Who knows what
the
> pricing will look like but we can all rest assured that the pricing will
> make all our noses bleed.
>
> As far as weight is concerned I wouldn't doubt that we will see greater
> usage of the Audi Space Frame (ASF) aluminum bodied cars in future
> iterations of Audis. They have a bunch of experience in ASF and are
> marketing the the technology as their future. The Nuvolari is based on ASF
> and is being looked at by many people as the basis for the next A6 or a
new
> A6 coupe. Further, if Audi wants to maintain the image as an aluminum
> fabrication leader in the automotive industry they will need to work fast
to
> stay ahead of Jaguar/Ford. While aluminum doesn't guarantee light weight
> cars it can be very helpful.
>
> Aar
>
>

JP Roberts

Of course, all the cars you mention do not offer the level of comfort or
exclusivity of an S4, and there are none except for Evos and Imprezas where
I drive, but the fact remains, your pride cannot remain unaltered if you're
overtaken by a car that costs just half of what you are driving and you're
driving a car with an S badge - for Sports, that's supposed to be.


Hairy One Kenobi <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
YtIKa.1417$MO2.584@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> news:bderjn$825$1@news.ya.com...
> > Maybe something much cheaper, as the Subaru Impreza or the Mitsu Evo,
both
> > of them with 300 HP now and considerably better acceleration in the low
> > range of speeds?
> >
> > I wouldn't like to be beaten by one of these after paying through the
nose
> > for a new S4.
>
> Oops! We're missing like-for-like again!
>
> If you want 4WD and low-speed acceleration, then none of the three will
get
> remotely close to a sub-GBP20k Dax Rush.
>
> Which proves exactly zilch, as it's a completely different car from the
> others. Now, let's see - a SCooby will set you back a snip under GBP30k,
> with the Prodrive pack. What you'll get is a 100% shiny plastic facia, the
> looks of a kitcar with a bad case of indegestion, and a superb car for
> tackling the twisty stuff.
>
> If you're planning to drive any distance, OTOH, then it's probably best to
> hire either an M3 or an S4. Or a TT. Or just about anything else. If the
> driving experience is all that matters, 100% of the time, then, by all
> means, go for it.
>
> Commuting from Reading into outer London in a Westfield is something that
> I'll never either forget or regret, but I'm not disappointed to be driving
a
> TTR, even if it cost several multiples more to buy.
>
> Ditto with a Scooby or Evo, I'm afraid. They're good translations of a
Rally
> car onto the road, but, to be honest, I can't see them getting
particularly
> close to a second-hand Ultima for the same sort of money. Looks,
> performance, or even fuel economy[1]
>
> But (again!) they're different cars, intended for different purposes.
> Where's this going to lead to? Comparing a Smart with a Zonta? ;o)
>
> H1K
>
> [1] Just in case you don't believe me - http://tinyurl.com/fd09 185mph, 60
> in 3.8, and just five miles from where I live (it's the middle one of the
> three). I prefer the Spyder, but it's a bit impractical (the new Can-Am
has
> a hood - this onew doesn't. Although I guess that 170mph top-down is quite
> something to be experienced ;o)
>
> > Steve Grauman <oneactor1@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> > 20030626040333.20874.00001940@mb-m27.aol.com...
> > > << Yes, really in the dry. And televised, and (apparently) watched by
at
> > least
> > > two posters in this group. Plus several million more Britons, I'd
> imagine.
> > >>
> > >
> > > The S4 is just a bad-*** track machine. Can't wait untill the 2 door
S4
> > powered
> > > cehicle comes along.
> > >
> > > << The theory goes that the M3 would be even slower in the wet, but it
> was
> > only
> > > tested in the dry (unusual for the UK ;o) >>
> > >
> > > I can't think of anything in the S4's price bracket that'd be faster
> than
> > it on
> > > a wet track. The RS6 may be the only sedan on earth faster in wet
> weather.
> >
> >
>
>

Spider

"JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message news:<bdf87p$1kd$1@news.ya.com>...
> > > The fact still remains that being the new S4 a good year and a half
> newer
> > > than the M3, they should have come up with something like 40 or 50 more
> > > Horses, at least in order to save face
> >
> > What do appearances matter when designing a performance car? You
> > design to a design goal and price point.
>
> Far from the point I'm making, I'm saying they should have given it a power
> edge over its BMW competitor.

Last time I did the math, 344 > 333.

> > > since at Euro 60,000 they are no
> > > bargain.
> >
> > Performance car buyers aren't looking for a bargain, but for a
> > performance car.
>
> What I'm saying - if you can still read between the lines, which I doubt -
> is that the car is clearly overpriced considering you will be stuck at 344
> HP with rather a lot of weight.

Then don't buy one. Seems some car rag liked it better than the M3,
so at least your opinion counts for something. Or not.

> > > Just remember the RS6 is 100k and is a hell lot more of a car which
> > > can easily be tuned to the 500-region horseriding land.
> >
> > Not without spending a bit over the purchase price, which is 60%
> > higher than the S4! "Oh, if I'm going to spend EU60k, I might as well
> > spend EU1ook+?" What an idiotic suggestion.
>
> This is no idiotic suggestion at all, maybe it is by your standards, but
> here in Europe people who can afford 60,000 can also afford 100,000, but
> maybe you can elaborate on your point from an American perspective - I hear
> a lot of people go leasing in the US.

If you have US$30k to spend on a car, that does not immediately
suggest that you can afford US$50k. It's just a plain stupid
assertion.

Insert $45k and $67k, if it is your wish.

> > > In my modest opinion, they are going to sell very few of the new S4s and
> > > that's precisely because they offer little if no tunability at all.
> >
> > LOL. You've been wrong about most other stuff, so I'm sure Audi will
> > be delighted with your "prediction."
>
> I do not know that I've been wrong about anything, but if you're planning to
> buy an S4, let me tell you something: A 225 HP S3 tuned to 300 HP - 450 Nm
> torque - will beat you every time, everywhere, and at a much cheaper price
> and petrol expenditure and maintenance.

Sure it will. Bench racing is fun.

Spider

daytripper

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:24:34 +0200, "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote:

>Of course, all the cars you mention do not offer the level of comfort or
>exclusivity of an S4, and there are none except for Evos and Imprezas where
>I drive, but the fact remains, your pride cannot remain unaltered if you're
>overtaken by a car that costs just half of what you are driving and you're
>driving a car with an S badge - for Sports, that's supposed to be.

Maturity is a wonderful thing, and if you ever get there, you'll understand
the answer to your question.

/daytripper
'00 s4 6spd. It's just a car, son...

Hairy One Kenobi

"JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
news:bdfodl$5h5$1@news.ya.com...
> Of course, all the cars you mention do not offer the level of comfort or
> exclusivity of an S4, and there are none except for Evos and Imprezas
where
> I drive, but the fact remains, your pride cannot remain unaltered if
you're
> overtaken by a car that costs just half of what you are driving and you're
> driving a car with an S badge - for Sports, that's supposed to be.

If you get emotionally hurt by someone overtaking you, then I'd suggest a
visit to a tuner, a performance driving instructor, or, in extreme cases, a
shrink!

I see from your post that you haven't gone so far as to check any of the
specifications for these cars..? While the picture here
http://tinyurl.com/fdob shows a harness that might not be to everyone's
taste (but is most definitely required - a full six-point at that), I would
be really surprised if you prefer the plastic in this
http://tinyurl.com/fdof the the Alcantara and Stack instrument pod. Still,
there's no accounting for taste ;o)

The exclusivity comment is also a little strange - given that, combined,
there are probally fewer Ultimas and Daxes in existance as roll-off the
Scooby construction line in an hour..

... or are you just sore that a GBP4500 car would likely leave yours for dead
in a sprint to 60mph. And with a 30 year old engine. On carbs ;o)

I'm not - after all, I was the one that sold it, and later ended up with an
Audi...

H1K

> Hairy One Kenobi <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> YtIKa.1417$MO2.584@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> > news:bderjn$825$1@news.ya.com...
> > > Maybe something much cheaper, as the Subaru Impreza or the Mitsu Evo,
> both
> > > of them with 300 HP now and considerably better acceleration in the
low
> > > range of speeds?
> > >
> > > I wouldn't like to be beaten by one of these after paying through the
> nose
> > > for a new S4.
> >
> > Oops! We're missing like-for-like again!
> >
> > If you want 4WD and low-speed acceleration, then none of the three will
> get
> > remotely close to a sub-GBP20k Dax Rush.
> >
> > Which proves exactly zilch, as it's a completely different car from the
> > others. Now, let's see - a SCooby will set you back a snip under GBP30k,
> > with the Prodrive pack. What you'll get is a 100% shiny plastic facia,
the
> > looks of a kitcar with a bad case of indegestion, and a superb car for
> > tackling the twisty stuff.
> >
> > If you're planning to drive any distance, OTOH, then it's probably best
to
> > hire either an M3 or an S4. Or a TT. Or just about anything else. If the
> > driving experience is all that matters, 100% of the time, then, by all
> > means, go for it.
> >
> > Commuting from Reading into outer London in a Westfield is something
that
> > I'll never either forget or regret, but I'm not disappointed to be
driving
> a
> > TTR, even if it cost several multiples more to buy.
> >
> > Ditto with a Scooby or Evo, I'm afraid. They're good translations of a
> Rally
> > car onto the road, but, to be honest, I can't see them getting
> particularly
> > close to a second-hand Ultima for the same sort of money. Looks,
> > performance, or even fuel economy[1]
> >
> > But (again!) they're different cars, intended for different purposes.
> > Where's this going to lead to? Comparing a Smart with a Zonta? ;o)
> >
> > H1K
> >
> > [1] Just in case you don't believe me - http://tinyurl.com/fd09 185mph,
60
> > in 3.8, and just five miles from where I live (it's the middle one of
the
> > three). I prefer the Spyder, but it's a bit impractical (the new Can-Am
> has
> > a hood - this onew doesn't. Although I guess that 170mph top-down is
quite
> > something to be experienced ;o)
> >
> > > Steve Grauman <oneactor1@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> > > 20030626040333.20874.00001940@mb-m27.aol.com...
> > > > << Yes, really in the dry. And televised, and (apparently) watched
by
> at
> > > least
> > > > two posters in this group. Plus several million more Britons, I'd
> > imagine.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > The S4 is just a bad-*** track machine. Can't wait untill the 2 door
> S4
> > > powered
> > > > cehicle comes along.
> > > >
> > > > << The theory goes that the M3 would be even slower in the wet, but
it
> > was
> > > only
> > > > tested in the dry (unusual for the UK ;o) >>
> > > >
> > > > I can't think of anything in the S4's price bracket that'd be faster
> > than
> > > it on
> > > > a wet track. The RS6 may be the only sedan on earth faster in wet
> > weather.

Steve Grauman

<< Maybe something much cheaper, as the Subaru Impreza or the Mitsu Evo >>

If you want to get into a price to performance equation, both of the cheap,
ugly rally-mobiles get thrown out. There's always Caterham and Westfield cars,
or the Atom. How about motorcycles? A Honda CBR1100XX or Ducati 996 will smash
most anything on 4 wheels in a straight line, and be cheaper. I'm aware of how
fast the STi and EVO are, but they'll never offer the combination of luxury,
comfort, and performance that an S4 does, which is why you pay more for the
Audi. And on a wet track, with good drivers, I'm betting the S4, with a 0-60
time of 5.2 seconds (on the sub-par stock tires) doesn't fall to far behind an
EVO or STi.

JP Roberts

> Then don't buy one. Seems some car rag liked it better than the M3,
> so at least your opinion counts for something. Or not.

Everybody except apparently you seems to agree that the M3 is much more fun
to drive.
..
>
> If you have US$30k to spend on a car, that does not immediately
> suggest that you can afford US$50k. It's just a plain stupid
> assertion.
>
> Insert $45k and $67k, if it is your wish.

Believe it or not most people who can afford Euro 60k can also affort 100k
here. I'm seeing it all the time. Alternatively, I can't see why people who
cannot afford 100k would buy a 60 k car.

>
> > > > In my modest opinion, they are going to sell very few of the new S4s
and
> > > > that's precisely because they offer little if no tunability at all.
> > >
> > > LOL. You've been wrong about most other stuff, so I'm sure Audi will
> > > be delighted with your "prediction."
> >
> > I do not know that I've been wrong about anything, but if you're
planning to
> > buy an S4, let me tell you something: A 225 HP S3 tuned to 300 HP - 450
Nm
> > torque - will beat you every time, everywhere, and at a much cheaper
price
> > and petrol expenditure and maintenance.
>
> Sure it will. Bench racing is fun.

But regretting your buy is not.

JP Roberts

Hairy One Kenobi <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
FoLKa.1623$MO2.1281@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> news:bdfodl$5h5$1@news.ya.com...
> > Of course, all the cars you mention do not offer the level of comfort or
> > exclusivity of an S4, and there are none except for Evos and Imprezas
> where
> > I drive, but the fact remains, your pride cannot remain unaltered if
> you're
> > overtaken by a car that costs just half of what you are driving and
you're
> > driving a car with an S badge - for Sports, that's supposed to be.
>
> If you get emotionally hurt by someone overtaking you, then I'd suggest a
> visit to a tuner, a performance driving instructor, or, in extreme cases,
a
> shrink!

It is not as much a matter of getting emotionally hurt as it is of getting
your wallet hit for an S-badge, so who should go to the shrink?

> I see from your post that you haven't gone so far as to check any of the
> specifications for these cars..? While the picture here
> http://tinyurl.com/fdob shows a harness that might not be to everyone's
> taste (but is most definitely required - a full six-point at that), I
would
> be really surprised if you prefer the plastic in this
> http://tinyurl.com/fdof the the Alcantara and Stack instrument pod. Still,
> there's no accounting for taste ;o)
>
> The exclusivity comment is also a little strange - given that, combined,
> there are probally fewer Ultimas and Daxes in existance as roll-off the
> Scooby construction line in an hour..
>
> .. or are you just sore that a GBP4500 car would likely leave yours for
dead
> in a sprint to 60mph. And with a 30 year old engine. On carbs ;o)
>
> I'm not - after all, I was the one that sold it, and later ended up with
an
> Audi...
>
> H1K
>
> > Hairy One Kenobi <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> > YtIKa.1417$MO2.584@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > > "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> > > news:bderjn$825$1@news.ya.com...
> > > > Maybe something much cheaper, as the Subaru Impreza or the Mitsu
Evo,
> > both
> > > > of them with 300 HP now and considerably better acceleration in the
> low
> > > > range of speeds?
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't like to be beaten by one of these after paying through
the
> > nose
> > > > for a new S4.
> > >
> > > Oops! We're missing like-for-like again!
> > >
> > > If you want 4WD and low-speed acceleration, then none of the three
will
> > get
> > > remotely close to a sub-GBP20k Dax Rush.
> > >
> > > Which proves exactly zilch, as it's a completely different car from
the
> > > others. Now, let's see - a SCooby will set you back a snip under
GBP30k,
> > > with the Prodrive pack. What you'll get is a 100% shiny plastic facia,
> the
> > > looks of a kitcar with a bad case of indegestion, and a superb car for
> > > tackling the twisty stuff.
> > >
> > > If you're planning to drive any distance, OTOH, then it's probably
best
> to
> > > hire either an M3 or an S4. Or a TT. Or just about anything else. If
the
> > > driving experience is all that matters, 100% of the time, then, by all
> > > means, go for it.
> > >
> > > Commuting from Reading into outer London in a Westfield is something
> that
> > > I'll never either forget or regret, but I'm not disappointed to be
> driving
> > a
> > > TTR, even if it cost several multiples more to buy.
> > >
> > > Ditto with a Scooby or Evo, I'm afraid. They're good translations of a
> > Rally
> > > car onto the road, but, to be honest, I can't see them getting
> > particularly
> > > close to a second-hand Ultima for the same sort of money. Looks,
> > > performance, or even fuel economy[1]
> > >
> > > But (again!) they're different cars, intended for different purposes.
> > > Where's this going to lead to? Comparing a Smart with a Zonta? ;o)
> > >
> > > H1K
> > >
> > > [1] Just in case you don't believe me - http://tinyurl.com/fd09
185mph,
> 60
> > > in 3.8, and just five miles from where I live (it's the middle one of
> the
> > > three). I prefer the Spyder, but it's a bit impractical (the new
Can-Am
> > has
> > > a hood - this onew doesn't. Although I guess that 170mph top-down is
> quite
> > > something to be experienced ;o)
> > >
> > > > Steve Grauman <oneactor1@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> > > > 20030626040333.20874.00001940@mb-m27.aol.com...
> > > > > << Yes, really in the dry. And televised, and (apparently) watched
> by
> > at
> > > > least
> > > > > two posters in this group. Plus several million more Britons, I'd
> > > imagine.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > The S4 is just a bad-*** track machine. Can't wait untill the 2
door
> > S4
> > > > powered
> > > > > cehicle comes along.
> > > > >
> > > > > << The theory goes that the M3 would be even slower in the wet,
but
> it
> > > was
> > > > only
> > > > > tested in the dry (unusual for the UK ;o) >>
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't think of anything in the S4's price bracket that'd be
faster
> > > than
> > > > it on
> > > > > a wet track. The RS6 may be the only sedan on earth faster in wet
> > > weather.
>
>

Hairy One Kenobi

"JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
news:bdhgq6$rup$1@news.ya.com...
> You'd better remember that the origin of Audi's prestige lies a good deal
on
> the rally victories they harvested a number of years ago - which is to
say -
> they were once very competitive cars.
>
> So are you saying Seats are going to be sportier than Audis in the future?
> In fact, we're now seeing the new Leon Cupra R with the 225 HP engine,
which
> in my opinion is rather a shame considering what Audi owners have paid for
> their cars to get more representation and hopefully that - now lacking -
> power edge.
>
> If that happens, I'll go BMW next time.

Hmm. More misunderstandings (I note that you've failed to answer any of the
other points raised)

The "new" 225 engine is, as I'm sure you well know, the 225 engine that
first appeared in the TT. A bit of research on your side should show-up the
internal VWG market, and the cars due in te next year or two. Try Hoot.

H1K

> Hairy One Kenobi <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> k7LKa.1612$MO2.1256@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > "JP Roberts" <12345@wanadoo.es> wrote in message
> > news:bdfo3b$4vd$1@news.ya.com...
> > > Thanks for an excellent post, Aaron, but the object of tuning as far
as
> I
> > am
> > > concerned is to make a good value car - take an 1.8T for example -
into
> a
> > > little beast eater. So, with Audi staying away from turbos except in
the
> > > RS's we can only anticipate the decline of a reasonably-priced Audi
> > empire.
> >
> > Actually, that's the "VW Empire". Audi is a brand, as are Seat and
Skoda.
> >
> > I think you need to gen-up with what VWG have been planning for the last
> > couple of years.. one of which is to use Audi as the [mainstream]
prestige
> > brand in its portfolio.
> >
> > H1K
> >
> >
>
>

JP Roberts

I was referring to the latest 343PS coupe M3, but I would also add they
might possibly be more fun when they work at all - apparently they got a lot
of lemon engines.

JP

Steve Grauman <oneactor1@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
20030627172551.06490.00001729@mb-m17.aol.com...
> << Everybody except apparently you seems to agree that the M3 is much more
fun
> to drive. >>
>
> B5 S4 Vs. E36 M3, I'll take the S4. Same goes for the newer cars, and I
havn't
> driven either of them yet.