Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
Chris Bartram wrote:
> PeterD wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
> >>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
> >>>
> >>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
> >>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
> >>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
> >>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
> >>>
> >>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
> >>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
> >>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
> >>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
> >>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
> >>>
> >>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
> >> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
> >> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
> >> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
> >> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
> >> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
> Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
> can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
> want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
> and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
> like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example.
>
> >>So really to use it in an
> >> aero application it would need a custom ECU
> >>
> >> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> >> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> >> be chipped up to around 100bhp
> >>
> But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
> much heavier.
> >
> > Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> > engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> > a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> > possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> > have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> > lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> > are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
> >
> > The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> > (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> > might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> > the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> > minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> > otherwise.
> >
> I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
> taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
>
> It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
> take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
> the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
> some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
switch to prevent
limp-home, for example."
Thanks,
Bill
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
Chris Bartram wrote:
> PeterD wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
> >>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
> >>>
> >>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
> >>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
> >>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
> >>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
> >>>
> >>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
> >>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
> >>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
> >>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
> >>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
> >>>
> >>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
> >> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
> >> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
> >> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
> >> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
> >> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
> Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
> can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
> want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
> and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
> like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example.
>
> >>So really to use it in an
> >> aero application it would need a custom ECU
> >>
> >> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> >> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> >> be chipped up to around 100bhp
> >>
> But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
> much heavier.
> >
> > Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> > engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> > a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> > possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> > have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> > lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> > are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
> >
> > The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> > (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> > might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> > the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> > minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> > otherwise.
> >
> I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
> taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
>
> It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
> take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
> the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
> some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
switch to prevent
limp-home, for example."
Thanks,
Bill
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
Chris Bartram wrote:
> PeterD wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
> >>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
> >>>
> >>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
> >>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
> >>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
> >>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
> >>>
> >>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
> >>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
> >>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
> >>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
> >>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
> >>>
> >>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
> >> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
> >> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
> >> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
> >> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
> >> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
> Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
> can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
> want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
> and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
> like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example.
>
> >>So really to use it in an
> >> aero application it would need a custom ECU
> >>
> >> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> >> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> >> be chipped up to around 100bhp
> >>
> But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
> much heavier.
> >
> > Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> > engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> > a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> > possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> > have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> > lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> > are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
> >
> > The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> > (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> > might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> > the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> > minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> > otherwise.
> >
> I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
> taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
>
> It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
> take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
> the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
> some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
switch to prevent
limp-home, for example."
Thanks,
Bill
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
> switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example."
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
You'd probably be best getting the pedals and wiring to be sure, as
there's the electronic throttle sensor to get as well.
I saw your post in uk.rec.cars.vw.watercooled too. I think you'll have
trouble sourcing one from a breakers. I didn't even know the A2 came
with the 1.2, and Lupo 3 litre cars with it are very rare: I have never
seen one. Plenty of the 1.4 iron-block, but that probably doesn't help.
One thought- apparently the toyota Yaris has an alloy-block diesel. That
might be easier to find. Seems to have had an appetite for head gaskets
though http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/l...hp/t47170.html
as has the alloy-block version of the Peugot/Citroen TUD, it would seem
, but it could be worth a look?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_XUD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TUD
You could try asking at www.tdiclub.com in the forums.
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
> switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example."
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
You'd probably be best getting the pedals and wiring to be sure, as
there's the electronic throttle sensor to get as well.
I saw your post in uk.rec.cars.vw.watercooled too. I think you'll have
trouble sourcing one from a breakers. I didn't even know the A2 came
with the 1.2, and Lupo 3 litre cars with it are very rare: I have never
seen one. Plenty of the 1.4 iron-block, but that probably doesn't help.
One thought- apparently the toyota Yaris has an alloy-block diesel. That
might be easier to find. Seems to have had an appetite for head gaskets
though http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/l...hp/t47170.html
as has the alloy-block version of the Peugot/Citroen TUD, it would seem
, but it could be worth a look?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_XUD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TUD
You could try asking at www.tdiclub.com in the forums.
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
> switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example."
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
You'd probably be best getting the pedals and wiring to be sure, as
there's the electronic throttle sensor to get as well.
I saw your post in uk.rec.cars.vw.watercooled too. I think you'll have
trouble sourcing one from a breakers. I didn't even know the A2 came
with the 1.2, and Lupo 3 litre cars with it are very rare: I have never
seen one. Plenty of the 1.4 iron-block, but that probably doesn't help.
One thought- apparently the toyota Yaris has an alloy-block diesel. That
might be easier to find. Seems to have had an appetite for head gaskets
though http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/l...hp/t47170.html
as has the alloy-block version of the Peugot/Citroen TUD, it would seem
, but it could be worth a look?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_XUD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TUD
You could try asking at www.tdiclub.com in the forums.
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
> switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example."
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
You'd probably be best getting the pedals and wiring to be sure, as
there's the electronic throttle sensor to get as well.
I saw your post in uk.rec.cars.vw.watercooled too. I think you'll have
trouble sourcing one from a breakers. I didn't even know the A2 came
with the 1.2, and Lupo 3 litre cars with it are very rare: I have never
seen one. Plenty of the 1.4 iron-block, but that probably doesn't help.
One thought- apparently the toyota Yaris has an alloy-block diesel. That
might be easier to find. Seems to have had an appetite for head gaskets
though http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/l...hp/t47170.html
as has the alloy-block version of the Peugot/Citroen TUD, it would seem
, but it could be worth a look?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_XUD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TUD
You could try asking at www.tdiclub.com in the forums.
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:19:45 +0000, Chris Bartram
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:19:45 +0000, Chris Bartram
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:19:45 +0000, Chris Bartram
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)
<news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> wrote:
>
>> I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
>> could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
>> Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
>> switch to prevent
>> limp-home, for example."
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>IIRC there's 2 brakelight switches, and a clutch switch. The clutch
>switch could be ignored, probably, but with the brake switches you need
>to make sure the ECU doesn't think there's a fault. I believe it
>compares the 2 switches, and if one is different, throws a check engine
>lamp. This may or may not reduce power- I can't remember. I do know that
>a very common cause of the check light is a blown brake bulb....
>
Humm, putting a brake pedal on an airplane... <g> That's interesting!
(OK, full sized planes do have brakes, but I don't think I've seen
brake lights on any. <bg>)