clynex

I am a newby, planning to upgrade the suspensions of my 98 audi a4.
For now, I have the money only for shock upgrade and possibly the
springs. I am planning to get 17" wheels, but meanwhile I have to
resort to sticking with my current 16". I plan to go with either
eibach pro damper or koni shocks. I hear that both require the
installation of sport springs as well. I would like to know if adding
the sport springs' a must. If I can get away without them, what
consequences should I prepare for? If I use the 16" wheels, would that
effect the suspension settings and what would the outcome be? Should I
get the wheels at the same time if possible? If there's a great
upgrade configuration proven for a novice like me, I would like to
know. Please help.

C.R. Krieger

Pronto Breakneck <no_address@example.com> wrote in message news:<20pklvoei5028kpplkmhqu68g3ask4s81t@4ax.com>. ..
> On 5 Sep 2003 23:23:11 -0700, clynex@hotmail.com (clynex) wrote:
> > I am planning to get 17" wheels, but meanwhile I have to
> >resort to sticking with my current 16".
>
> You really don't need 17" wheels. Watch the (good) autoX guys,
> they're all running 15" and 16" wheels without any ill effects. Get
> get a good set of tires, and you'll be better off.

Agreed here; but part of the reason for running smaller diameter
wheels is acceleration gearing and wheel mass. Smaller is quicker on
both counts.

> >I plan to go with either >eibach pro damper or koni shocks. I hear that
> >both require the installation of sport springs as well.
>
> There's not much of a point in switching to a performance damper if
> you're not also changing the springs, no. I'll you'll wind up with
> is overdamped stock springs.

I'd beg to differ with each of you. For the original poster, the only
exception I know to using a 'sport' shock with stock springs would be
Bilstein's and that's because they build them physically shorter (to
use with shorter springs). If the shock manufacturer says they'll
work with stock springs, I wouldn't hesitate to use them that way.

To the respondent, what the hell is an 'overdamped' spring? Amos
Johnson and Roger Mandeville used to professionally (and quite
successfully) race 'showroom stock' Mazdas in the old IMSA Escort
Endurance Series. While they were *allowed* to use different springs
and shocks, they only used different *shocks* with *stock* springs on
their 323s. It all depends on what you want to feel from your
suspension. Tokico, Koni, and others make *adjustable* shocks,
y'know. The reason is, you may want different damping for different
conditions while still using the *same* springs (stock or otherwise).
Ask those same autocrossers about it. As for me, I've swapped in gas
'performance' shocks and strut inserts (Bilstein and Boge) with stock
springs. They work great. I've also done it with sport springs.
They work great, too.

> If your current dampers are shot, and you can't afford to also replace
> the springs, just get OEM-equivalent dampers. If the ones you have
> aren't shot, save up until you can replace everything.
>
> > I would like to know if adding the sport springs' a must.
>
> Yes.

Sorry; I gotta disagree.

> The weight of the car rides on the springs. If you want to improve
> the way the car handles, you upgrade the springs, and select an
> appropriate damper for the characteristics of the spring.

Actually, its a lot more complex than that. Suffice to say that a
shock change alone *can* make a noticeable and positive difference in
the handling of a car. Of course, so can changing antiroll bars ...
or adjusting tire pressures.

> > If there's a great upgrade configuration proven for a novice like me,
> >I would like to >know. Please help.

There is. That is, if your suspension isn't at least as good as
stock, get it there or slightly (not extremely - no full suspension
rebuilds to racing specs) better with the new set of shocks/strut
inserts. Then, get yourself into a driver school with it. Odds are
your car is capable of doing things you can't (because you haven't
learned how). Upgrade *yourself* until you can reliably, repeatably,
and safely exceed your car's capabilities. By then, you'll know what
you want to change and you'll know the people (instructors like me)
who can tell you what to do about it.
--
C.R. Krieger
Audi Car Club N.A.
BMW CCA
SCCA

C.R. Krieger

Pronto Breakneck <no_address@example.com> wrote in message news:<6u7tlvgs1rq4eh4eqervm6l7psbuq7q2jb@4ax.com>. ..
> On 9 Sep 2003 08:14:10 -0700, warp2_shadow@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger)
> wrote:
>
> >Agreed here; but part of the reason for running smaller diameter
> >wheels is acceleration gearing and wheel mass. Smaller is quicker on
> >both counts.
>
> You've written that like you're correcting me. Next time, eliminate
> the "but".

Fair enough!

> >To the respondent, what the hell is an 'overdamped' spring?
>
> If your damper is too hefty for your springs, you'll experience
> detrimental handling over uneven ground. If the front is overdamped,
> your car will understeer. If the rear is overdamped, the car will
> oversteer.

A shock absorber *upgrade* is more likely to involve a gas-charged
shock that increases damping for long suspension travel distances (big
bumps, body roll in slight turn corrections) and, at the same time,
decreases damping for small suspension travel distances (allowing the
wheels to track better on slightly rough or uneven surfaces). While
you're correct about the handling changes we'd expect to see, I didn't
discuss oversteer-understeer characteristics because I assumed the OP
would be changing both ends at the same time with a matched set of
shocks/strut inserts. Of course, installing the correct 'unmatched'
set or adjusting adjustables properly could be a distinct advantage in
suspension tuning as well as a drawback.

> As a really smart guy, you already know that the whole point in the
> suspension is to keep the tires in contact with the ground. If your
> springs are overdamped, you're going to slow down the recovery time of
> the suspension after hitting bumps in the road. This is a Bad Thing.

High damping rates at long suspension travel distances keeps the
suspension from bottoming out. This is a Worse Thing.

> > Amos
> >Johnson and Roger Mandeville used to professionally (and quite
> >successfully) race 'showroom stock' Mazdas in the old IMSA Escort
> >Endurance Series.
>
> Since when are we talking about driving on prepared racetracks? Road
> Atlanta and Laguna Seca are markedly different environments than most
> of us regularly operate our vehicles in.

While places like these, as well as Road America, Watkins Glen, and
Mid Ohio are quite smooth, you can always drop a wheel at the wrong
place as well as having to drive the 'shortest racing line' over some
'alligator bumps' at all of those tracks. I've driven showroom stock
race cars on the street with similar suspensions and they're flat out
wonderful, if a bit stiffer than most people like. What makes the
ride nasty on the street is too-stiff springs, not performance shocks.
Then, there are the tracks you don't even want to drive your own car
on. Ever been to Sebring, Nelson Ledges, Grattan, or Lime Rock? =8^O

> > Then, get yourself into a driver school with it. Odds are
> >your car is capable of doing things you can't (because you haven't
> >learned how). Upgrade *yourself* until you can reliably, repeatably,
> >and safely exceed your car's capabilities.
>
> Excellent, excellent advice.

Danke sehr!
--
C.R. Krieger
Audi Car Club N.A.
BMW CCA
SCCA