The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030929215222.09624.00000064@mb-m25.aol.com...
>No, the 3.2 litre VR6 is a purely VW design.
>Sorry, I refer to the V6 3.2 being fitted to the current UK TT.
>Actually, your backwards. The A3 is built on the MKV platform, which VW
>designed for the Golf first.
>My understanding from Audi UK is that the platform was jointly accepted and adopted although it is
>difficult to establish which payroll the designers were benefiting from at the time.
>You see this as a plus? With VW now carrying Audi engines, it leaves buyers
>with even *less* incentive to step up.
>Yes I do. VW are ditching their 150 Diesel in favour of the more technically advanced and smoother 2.0 Audi unit.
>I run a company Golf GTI TDI 150, it's a riot of torque and raw muscle but smooth it most certainly is not and it squeaks and creaks.
>I still like it though!
>The updated Audi 1.8 T 190 power plant is rumoured to be added to the VW Golf range on the European market,
>this is a great four pot engine.
>It's 90% of everything the A4 is for thousands less. And my father owned a B5
>A4, so I have a direct comparison.
>I have owned 3 A4 models and would always seek to get that extra 10% you get with the Audi product. I would not be able
>to say that my ownership has been totally trouble free but problems have been very minor, with both problems sorted out quickly.
>My local dealer very nearly put me off Audi for good last year, as a result of arrogance and poor customer focus but they
>lost their franchise to another company who have proved excellent.
> I'm not sure I can honestly say I'd pick *any* VW/Audi product over the
> competitive product from BMW. The A8 Vs. the 7 series would be the only
> exception. The C-class is overpriced, under-whelming, and generally crap for
> people who want nothing more than the name. The SL and S-class sedans are MBs
> only strong suits.
>I concede you point regarding the C Class, although I believe the E Class to be more responsible for rebuilding Mercedes
>reputation for quality and will prove a weighty competitor for the forthcoming New A6 and the now released BMW 5 Series.
>Not only do I believe they'd do it, I *know* their doing it. The Toureag pushes
>over $50k when fully loaded, and the Phaeton, sharing many parts with the A8,
>is due soon, with a price tag veering close to $100,000 USD when fully
>equipped. Are you that blind? Can't you see that VW is starting the push into
>BMW, MB, and Audi territory?
>No I am not blind to the quality products VW produce but they simply cannot expect to push into
>this territory and not receive some serious competition. This is illustrated perfectly by the quiet withdrawal of the Phaeton
>product from sale in the UK. It will further be illustrated by the poor Touraeg sales in the UK and the arrival of the Pikes Peak
>will only serve to highlight their problem in this market.
>Even the Yanks couldn't get it that wrong.....May be not!
>First of all, the Americans had nothing to do with this. Secondly, "maybe" is
>one word.
>Apologies, didn't mean to sound off so, thanks for the grammar correction!
>Blind brand advocacy like what you're ( A little dubious in it's construction ) spouting is what's allowed Audi to remain
>complacent and unresponsive for this long. Watering down the problem makes it
>seem less like a problem, but watering down scotch will ruin it, watering down
>a problem so the company can ignore it will only prolong the problem, and ruin
>problem.
>I believe there exists a remarkable synergy between Audi and VW both have much to contribute
>but I do believe that Audi Designers and Engineers contribute more to the Volkswagen AG group
>than say VW contributes to the likes of Skoda and Seat.
Cheers.
Gez.......
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
<< Sorry, I refer to the V6 3.2 being fitted to the current UK TT. >>
That's VW's engine. Audi just borrowed it because it was designed for the Golf
Platform, and is the only six cylinder engine besides VW's 2.8 VR6 that could
be made to fit in the TT. Don't forget the TT starts life on a Golf platform.
<< My understanding from Audi UK is that the platform was jointly accepted and
adopted although it is difficult to establish which payroll the designers were
benefiting from at the time. >>
The development of the MKV platform was mostly VW's deal. The A3 didn't exist
untill Audi took a Golf platform to build their own model on, and the new A3 is
no exception. While Audi may have (and probably did) have some input during
development, the MKV platform was designed for the Golf and Jetta (Bora/Vento)
first.
<< VW are ditching their 150 Diesel in favour of the more technically advanced
and smoother 2.0 Audi unit. >>
This is a great plus for VW buyers. But seeing as the European market Gold is
avalible with AWD and at least one Audi engine, where's the incentive to move
up to the TDi A3? The two cars share a platform, an engine, and many other
parts, and VW's interiors have gotten nothing but nicer.
<< The updated Audi 1.8 T 190 power plant is rumoured to be added to theVW
Golf range on the European market this is a great four pot engine. >>
The 1.8T is much more important to the European market than it is to the
American market because of higher fuel (petrol) costs over there. But the 2.0T
is going to be the superior powerplant, and will start with 200 horsepower.
<< I believe the E Class to be more responsible for rebuilding Mercedes
reputation for quality and will prove a weighty competitor for the forthcoming
New A6 and the now released BMW 5 Series. >>
I agree that the E-Class is MBs main focal point at the moment. But I've driven
both the outgoing version and the new one, and was unimpressed.
<< No I am not blind to the quality products VW produce but they simply cannot
expect to push into
this territory and not receive some serious competition. >>
No one is claiming that they won't have competition. But you're making wild
claims that VW would never attempt to move into Audi territory *as they're
doing it*. It's like claiming that the ***** never bombed England.
<< This is illustrated perfectly by the quiet withdrawal of the Phaeton product
from sale in the UK. >>
They've already pulled it from the UK? When??
<< It will further be illustrated by the poor Touraeg sales in the UK >>
It seems to me that SUVs in general don't sell well in the UK market.
<< I believe there exists a remarkable synergy between Audi and VW both have
much to contribute
but I do believe that Audi Designers and Engineers contribute more to the
Volkswagen AG group than say VW contributes to the likes of Skoda and Seat.>>
This is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that VW is going to be
offering cars with more power and features, better overall performance, and a
lower pricetag than the Audi competitior.
That's VW's engine. Audi just borrowed it because it was designed for the Golf
Platform, and is the only six cylinder engine besides VW's 2.8 VR6 that could
be made to fit in the TT. Don't forget the TT starts life on a Golf platform.
<< My understanding from Audi UK is that the platform was jointly accepted and
adopted although it is difficult to establish which payroll the designers were
benefiting from at the time. >>
The development of the MKV platform was mostly VW's deal. The A3 didn't exist
untill Audi took a Golf platform to build their own model on, and the new A3 is
no exception. While Audi may have (and probably did) have some input during
development, the MKV platform was designed for the Golf and Jetta (Bora/Vento)
first.
<< VW are ditching their 150 Diesel in favour of the more technically advanced
and smoother 2.0 Audi unit. >>
This is a great plus for VW buyers. But seeing as the European market Gold is
avalible with AWD and at least one Audi engine, where's the incentive to move
up to the TDi A3? The two cars share a platform, an engine, and many other
parts, and VW's interiors have gotten nothing but nicer.
<< The updated Audi 1.8 T 190 power plant is rumoured to be added to theVW
Golf range on the European market this is a great four pot engine. >>
The 1.8T is much more important to the European market than it is to the
American market because of higher fuel (petrol) costs over there. But the 2.0T
is going to be the superior powerplant, and will start with 200 horsepower.
<< I believe the E Class to be more responsible for rebuilding Mercedes
reputation for quality and will prove a weighty competitor for the forthcoming
New A6 and the now released BMW 5 Series. >>
I agree that the E-Class is MBs main focal point at the moment. But I've driven
both the outgoing version and the new one, and was unimpressed.
<< No I am not blind to the quality products VW produce but they simply cannot
expect to push into
this territory and not receive some serious competition. >>
No one is claiming that they won't have competition. But you're making wild
claims that VW would never attempt to move into Audi territory *as they're
doing it*. It's like claiming that the ***** never bombed England.
<< This is illustrated perfectly by the quiet withdrawal of the Phaeton product
from sale in the UK. >>
They've already pulled it from the UK? When??
<< It will further be illustrated by the poor Touraeg sales in the UK >>
It seems to me that SUVs in general don't sell well in the UK market.
<< I believe there exists a remarkable synergy between Audi and VW both have
much to contribute
but I do believe that Audi Designers and Engineers contribute more to the
Volkswagen AG group than say VW contributes to the likes of Skoda and Seat.>>
This is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that VW is going to be
offering cars with more power and features, better overall performance, and a
lower pricetag than the Audi competitior.
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
<< LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
>>
Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
MK5.5 designation internally.
>>
Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
MK5.5 designation internally.
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
Steve Grauman wrote:
> << LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
> >>
>
> Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
> all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
> MK5.5 designation internally.
Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing
dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no?
--
Mike Smith
> << LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
> >>
>
> Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
> all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
> MK5.5 designation internally.
Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing
dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no?
--
Mike Smith
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030930161705.01014.00000068@mb-m29.aol.com...
> << Sorry, I refer to the V6 3.2 being fitted to the current UK TT. >>
>
> That's VW's engine. Audi just borrowed it because it was designed for the Golf
> Platform, and is the only six cylinder engine besides VW's 2.8 VR6 that could
> be made to fit in the TT. Don't forget the TT starts life on a Golf platform.
I beg to differ.
>
> << My understanding from Audi UK is that the platform was jointly accepted and
> adopted although it is difficult to establish which payroll the designers were
> benefiting from at the time. >>
>
> The development of the MKV platform was mostly VW's deal. The A3 didn't exist
> until Audi took a Golf platform to build their own model on, and the new A3 is
> no exception. While Audi may have (and probably did) have some input during
> development, the MKV platform was designed for the Golf and Jetta (Bora/Vento)
> first.
I wouldn't contest the MK V origins but the people at Audi UK have said that this is a new and collaborative platform
and if as you say it is more of an VW thing it's strange that the VW Golf sales have been falling off in Europe
in its old guise but not so the old A3 which always had the brand edge over the Golf in Europe, its sales were steady.
My point being the Golf should have been the first vehicle to use the platform and not the A3, it needed it more.
>
> << VW are ditching their 150 Diesel in favour of the more technically advanced
> and smoother 2.0 Audi unit. >>
>
> This is a great plus for VW buyers. But seeing as the European market Gold is
> available with AWD and at least one Audi engine, where's the incentive to move
> up to the TDi A3? The two cars share a platform, an engine, and many other
> parts, and VW's interiors have gotten nothing but nicer.
As I have said it's in the brand name, the image is so much stronger than the Golf. The World leader
in the all wheel drive market is Quattro from Audi, the A3 will appear early next year with 300+ bhp
and Quattro linked to the Audi designed and superb DSG Transmission. The low emission FSI Direct injection
petrol engine is at the early stages of it's development and will be more than capable of meeting and beating the
competition. In case you have forgotten, Audi have based the design of the interior of the A3 on elements of the TT,
widely acclaimed as a design Icon. From what I have seen of the new Golf interior pictures only, it appears as drab
as my 8 month old model. I have driven the 140 tdi new A3 and in everyway it is superior to my Golf.
>
> << The updated Audi 1.8 T 190 power plant is rumoured to be added to theVW
> Golf range on the European market this is a great four pot engine. >>
>
> The 1.8T is much more important to the European market than it is to the
> American market because of higher fuel (petrol) costs over there. But the 2.0T
> is going to be the superior power plant, and will start with 200 horsepower.
Agreed four pots are important to the EU Market but believe me it's coming to a town near you.
I suspect the 2.0T is a hybrid of the FSI Audi engine.
>
> << I believe the E Class to be more responsible for rebuilding Mercedes
> reputation for quality and will prove a weighty competitor for the forthcoming
> New A6 and the now released BMW 5 Series. >>
>
> I agree that the E-Class is MBs main focal point at the moment. But I've driven
> both the outgoing version and the new one, and was unimpressed.
I haven't driven the new E class but I do appreciate it is a step up in build
quality from anything they have thrown together in recent times
>
> << No I am not blind to the quality products VW produce but they simply cannot
> expect to push into
> this territory and not receive some serious competition. >>
>
> No one is claiming that they won't have competition. But you're making wild
> claims that VW would never attempt to move into Audi territory *as they're
> doing it*. It's like claiming that the ***** never bombed England.
More like committing Business suicide, I agree it represents good practice to always strive for excellence
but they cannot hope to compete against these big hitters in the high end of the market.
Buyers in this range of cars, discerning or otherwise will always gravitate to the brand strength.
>
> << This is illustrated perfectly by the quiet withdrawal of the Phaeton product
> from sale in the UK. >>
>
> They've already pulled it from the UK? When??
Hot off the press release in the UK. Great car lots of Audi parts but in this class I say again, no brand image.
>
> << It will further be illustrated by the poor Touraeg sales in the UK >>
>
> It seems to me that SUVs in general don't sell well in the UK market.
X5 does extremely well as does Range Rover and to a lesser degree Lexus, Pike Peak is pitching into a bear pit
as is the Toureag.
>
> << I believe there exists a remarkable synergy between Audi and VW both have
> much to contribute
> but I do believe that Audi Designers and Engineers contribute more to the
> Volkswagen AG group than say VW contributes to the likes of Skoda and Seat.>>
>
> This is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that VW is going to be
> offering cars with more power and features, better overall performance, and a
> lower price than the Audi competitor.
It is not irrelevant since Skoda and Seat offer arguably better deals for the same technology
as VW use, this does not in my view make the VW a poorer purchase. It merely means that
you have decided to buy into a brand image also.
The same applies to the Audi, VW market relationship. VW make fine cars, Audi make fine cars.
It's just that Audi has the brand presence in the high end market and VW holds a niche between the
Fords, Nissans, Mazdas, Toyotas, Hondas etc, etc, and the top marques represented buy Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Jaguar etc.
Regards.
Gez.....
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
<< Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing
dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no? >>
This analogy is a little out there, don't you think? I'm not even claiming that
VW *does* use the MK5.5 designation internally, just that it's possible. Even
if they didn't, the fact that so many people (a large group of them on the VW
NG alone) use the term shows that it's still valid in conversation. It's not
simply a 1-off term that only I use. Besides, arguing over the offical
designation of the current Passat is hardly relevant to the discussion.
dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no? >>
This analogy is a little out there, don't you think? I'm not even claiming that
VW *does* use the MK5.5 designation internally, just that it's possible. Even
if they didn't, the fact that so many people (a large group of them on the VW
NG alone) use the term shows that it's still valid in conversation. It's not
simply a 1-off term that only I use. Besides, arguing over the offical
designation of the current Passat is hardly relevant to the discussion.
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
Steve Grauman wrote:
> << Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing
> dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
> otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no? >>
>
> This analogy is a little out there, don't you think? I'm not even claiming that
> VW *does* use the MK5.5 designation internally, just that it's possible.
I didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof
that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*.
--
Mike Smith
> << Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing
> dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven
> otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no? >>
>
> This analogy is a little out there, don't you think? I'm not even claiming that
> VW *does* use the MK5.5 designation internally, just that it's possible.
I didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof
that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*.
--
Mike Smith
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
<< didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof
that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*. >>
I agree, but Spider doesn't have any proff that it isn't used either.
that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*. >>
I agree, but Spider doesn't have any proff that it isn't used either.
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
oneactor1@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message news:<20030930161830.01014.00000069@mb-m29.aol.com>...
> << LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
> >>
>
> Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
> all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
> MK5.5 designation internally.
So, it's not a technical designation. Millions of people use the
phrase "I could care less," but that doesn't make it meaningful. Even
if VW uses it internally, it's *still* not a technical designation.
Hey, just admit that it's non-technical and move on with your life.
Defending the term seems kinda silly.
Spider
> << LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
> >>
>
> Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners
> all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the
> MK5.5 designation internally.
So, it's not a technical designation. Millions of people use the
phrase "I could care less," but that doesn't make it meaningful. Even
if VW uses it internally, it's *still* not a technical designation.
Hey, just admit that it's non-technical and move on with your life.
Defending the term seems kinda silly.
Spider
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...
oneactor1@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message news:<20030930225755.21482.00000081@mb-m02.aol.com>...
> << didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof
> that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*. >>
>
> I agree, but Spider doesn't have any proff that it isn't used either.
Since it's not used officially by VW in any of the
publically-available documentation, I would suggest that this is proof
that it's not a technical designation. It's merely something that VW
fans use. Nothing more.
Spider
> << didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof
> that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*. >>
>
> I agree, but Spider doesn't have any proff that it isn't used either.
Since it's not used officially by VW in any of the
publically-available documentation, I would suggest that this is proof
that it's not a technical designation. It's merely something that VW
fans use. Nothing more.
Spider