Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

Here in the US, we get the 4.4 BMW driveline only.
At 72K - 84K, that would be about my last choice. While the new Range
may be an overinflated X5, and a wonderful truck, there's plenty of
British left in it to make it anything but reliable....


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:08:25 -0000, "Bhoona" <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>I would recommend a Range Rover.

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

That new Infiniti G35x looks intriguing, nice engine and sounds like a
really good AWD system. Should be reliable and a great value all-around.
As you're looking to keep it for 10+ years re-sale value isn't really an
issue (which would be my one minor concern with getting an Infiniti).

"Saintor" <saintor1@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_2mOb.132030$ld7.2182855@wagner.videotron.net ...
> If you insist on "most reliable", avoid German cars then.
>
> Possible alternatives.
> - Lexus RX330
> - Acura MDX
> - Infiniti G35X.
>
> I'd still take an E-Class. :o)))) Or an Acura TL for 20K$ less.
>
>
> "REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mYgOb.26659$VS4.828669@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I currently have both an S420 (for sale) and a Ford Explorer lease car.
> > I'd like to consolidate to one vehicle since my only use for the 4 wheel
> > drive is a once per month ski excursion in the snow during the winter.
> >
> > And I'm at the point where I'd like to get dead bang great reliability
> from
> > a vehicle over a 10 year ownership (which is about 140,000 miles for me)
> >
> > I've been reading each of these newsgroups, as well as a few others for
a
> > while, and in each newsgroup there are ongoing complaints about the
> > reliability of each marque. I'm ALMOST willing to go Japanese, but
not
> > quite yet.
> >
> > What are your recommendations for the most reliable 4 wheel drive car
that
> > will comfortably seat four adults, and why?
> >
> > Thanks very much,
> > Larry
> > LWallerstein@btcommercial.com
> >
> >
>
>

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"Dave LaCourse" <davplac@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20040117173939.24764.00000212@mb-m16.aol.com...
> Larry writes:
>
> <snip>
>
> >What are your recommendations for the most reliable 4 wheel drive car
that
> >will comfortably seat four adults, and why?
>
> I thought we went through this already.
>
> Audi has the most experience with all wheel drive passenger cars. The
Quattro
> system is bullet-proof. Plus it is one of the safest cars out there.
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Yes, I wanted to expand it to other newsgroups and get opinions from other
marque owners. The net result is that they are ignoring the fact that I
want a CAR, e.g. sedan, and are getting into the SUV formats. So I'm not
sure I gained any ground.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

You guys are missing the point. The original poster was looking for an awd
*car*, like in *sedan*. He doesn't want to go the SUV route. He wants a car
that will seat four adults comfortably and has awd. The obvious choice is the
best awd system out there - Audi, and the car would be the A6 or the A8, hands
down the two best ald sedans in the world. Period!
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mYgOb.26659$VS4.828669@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I currently have both an S420 (for sale) and a Ford Explorer lease car.
> I'd like to consolidate to one vehicle since my only use for the 4 wheel
> drive is a once per month ski excursion in the snow during the winter.
>
> And I'm at the point where I'd like to get dead bang great reliability
from
> a vehicle over a 10 year ownership (which is about 140,000 miles for me)

>I've been reading each of these newsgroups, as well as a few others for a
>while, and in each newsgroup there are ongoing complaints about the
>reliability of each marque. I'm ALMOST willing to go Japanese, but not
>quite yet.


Hi Larry.

About two Months ago I was in the exact same boat as you. I wanted four
wheel drive combined with quality and reliability. I started out looking at
the Japanese brands, and found them to be a nice product for the price, but
not built nearly as sturdy as the German cars I test drove soon after. I
ended up narrowing my choice down to these three: Audi A6, Mercedes E-320
and BMW 5 series.
Let me quick give you a quick synopsis of each one.

A6 2.7T Quattro:

I was impressed with this car. I test drove a 2000 with only 31,000 miles
and it was an Audi certified vehicle which meant it came with a two year
extended bumper to bumper warranty after the manufactures warranty ran out.
It was loaded with all the bells and whistles, GPS navigation systems,
Quattro AWD, power everything, 12 airbags, and more creature comforts than I
can fit in an essay. The twin turbo 2.7 liter six cylinder engine made great
power, with the torque peak at only 1800 rpm the car was very tractable and
passing was a breeze with the silky smooth power delivery....but at the same
time I've never felt a engine so willing to soar right up to the redline,
and it felt very at home at the higher engine speeds. The ride was very
good, offering a fine balance between sport and touring. I found the
handling with the Quattro to be very reassuring, predictable, and
responsive. I was so impressed with the car I almost made a deal that day.

BMW 528i:

I know this isn't AWD, or even offered with it, so I'll make it brief. Very
much a drivers car: crisp handling, smooth power, harder suspension, and
excellent breaks. It fit like a glove from the first second I sat it in.
Build quality felt very solid but didn't have the goodies like the Audi. The
absence of an AWD system made me pass on this one, but a masterpiece
nonetheless.

Mercedes E320 4MATIC:

Funny enough the car that I thought I would like the least was the one I
ended up buying. Everything about this car felt right from the start. You
have A Mercedes so I'm sure you'll be able to relate with a lot of the stuff
I am going to say about it. Just don't confuse the E-CLASS with your much
larger S-Class. The E-Class can hold its own right up there with the best
from BMW and Audi. I also drove a E430 with the hotrod 4.3 V8 shoehorned in,
and the power combined with smoothness is something I've never experienced
in another car before, it was also as quiet as a snowflake (same can be said
for the 3.2 I-6). I'm simply amazed that Mercedes can make the E320 ride so
smooth, yet handle so well. It looks huge from the outside, yet when your
driving it, you would never guess the car weighs 3500lbs and is 10 feet
long. I've driven it through a pretty severe snowstorm already and the
4MATIC system worked wonders, that along with the 40 other kinds of traction
control systems that aid the 4MATIC. I seriously think it would be almost
impossible to slide off the road with the 4MATIC. When the road was clear, I
tried my best to get the car sideways or to slide unfavorably and I couldn't
phase it. To top it all off, the E320 is built like a band vault, has
industry leading quality/reliability, its fun to drive, safe and offers more
accessories than you could ever need.

So please...before you make a decision, give the A6 and E-CLASS the once
over...I think you will prefer them over any Japanese or domestic brand for
not only the quality, but the superior engineering and creature comforts. If
you plan to keep the car for a long time (which you said you did) than
again, German cars are built for the long haul. I have owned 20+ year old
Porsches and BMWs and even at that age they were still looking and driving
like new, likewise I've never been able to keep a Japanese car for longer
than +- 10-12 years because any older than that and they really begin to
start showing their age with rust and interiors that literally disintegrate.
Either way you go, good luck with your next car. Let us know what you
decide.

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"Dan Manning" <DM@ourworld.net> wrote in message
news:budbr3$2qn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
>
> "REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mYgOb.26659$VS4.828669@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I currently have both an S420 (for sale) and a Ford Explorer lease car.
> > I'd like to consolidate to one vehicle since my only use for the 4 wheel
> > drive is a once per month ski excursion in the snow during the winter.
> >
> > And I'm at the point where I'd like to get dead bang great reliability
> from
> > a vehicle over a 10 year ownership (which is about 140,000 miles for me)
>
> >I've been reading each of these newsgroups, as well as a few others for a
> >while, and in each newsgroup there are ongoing complaints about the
> >reliability of each marque. I'm ALMOST willing to go Japanese, but not
> >quite yet.
>
>
> Hi Larry.
>
> About two Months ago I was in the exact same boat as you. I wanted four
> wheel drive combined with quality and reliability. I started out looking
at
> the Japanese brands, and found them to be a nice product for the price,
but
> not built nearly as sturdy as the German cars I test drove soon after. I
> ended up narrowing my choice down to these three: Audi A6, Mercedes E-320
> and BMW 5 series.
> Let me quick give you a quick synopsis of each one.
>
> A6 2.7T Quattro:
>
> I was impressed with this car. I test drove a 2000 with only 31,000 miles
> and it was an Audi certified vehicle which meant it came with a two year
> extended bumper to bumper warranty after the manufactures warranty ran
out.
> It was loaded with all the bells and whistles, GPS navigation systems,
> Quattro AWD, power everything, 12 airbags, and more creature comforts than
I
> can fit in an essay. The twin turbo 2.7 liter six cylinder engine made
great
> power, with the torque peak at only 1800 rpm the car was very tractable
and
> passing was a breeze with the silky smooth power delivery....but at the
same
> time I've never felt a engine so willing to soar right up to the redline,
> and it felt very at home at the higher engine speeds. The ride was very
> good, offering a fine balance between sport and touring. I found the
> handling with the Quattro to be very reassuring, predictable, and
> responsive. I was so impressed with the car I almost made a deal that day.
>
> BMW 528i:
>
> I know this isn't AWD, or even offered with it, so I'll make it brief.
Very
> much a drivers car: crisp handling, smooth power, harder suspension, and
> excellent breaks. It fit like a glove from the first second I sat it in.
> Build quality felt very solid but didn't have the goodies like the Audi.
The
> absence of an AWD system made me pass on this one, but a masterpiece
> nonetheless.
>
> Mercedes E320 4MATIC:
>
> Funny enough the car that I thought I would like the least was the one I
> ended up buying. Everything about this car felt right from the start. You
> have A Mercedes so I'm sure you'll be able to relate with a lot of the
stuff
> I am going to say about it. Just don't confuse the E-CLASS with your much
> larger S-Class. The E-Class can hold its own right up there with the best
> from BMW and Audi. I also drove a E430 with the hotrod 4.3 V8 shoehorned
in,
> and the power combined with smoothness is something I've never experienced
> in another car before, it was also as quiet as a snowflake (same can be
said
> for the 3.2 I-6). I'm simply amazed that Mercedes can make the E320 ride
so
> smooth, yet handle so well. It looks huge from the outside, yet when your
> driving it, you would never guess the car weighs 3500lbs and is 10 feet
> long. I've driven it through a pretty severe snowstorm already and the
> 4MATIC system worked wonders, that along with the 40 other kinds of
traction
> control systems that aid the 4MATIC. I seriously think it would be almost
> impossible to slide off the road with the 4MATIC. When the road was clear,
I
> tried my best to get the car sideways or to slide unfavorably and I
couldn't
> phase it. To top it all off, the E320 is built like a band vault, has
> industry leading quality/reliability, its fun to drive, safe and offers
more
> accessories than you could ever need.
>
> So please...before you make a decision, give the A6 and E-CLASS the once
> over...I think you will prefer them over any Japanese or domestic brand
for
> not only the quality, but the superior engineering and creature comforts.
If
> you plan to keep the car for a long time (which you said you did) than
> again, German cars are built for the long haul. I have owned 20+ year old
> Porsches and BMWs and even at that age they were still looking and driving
> like new, likewise I've never been able to keep a Japanese car for longer
> than +- 10-12 years because any older than that and they really begin to
> start showing their age with rust and interiors that literally
disintegrate.
> Either way you go, good luck with your next car. Let us know what you
> decide.

Thanks, Dan. This was exactly the type of comparisons I was hoping to get
from owners of the different marques. Very informative. I'll be test
riding both of them, but that doesn't answer the question of reliability.
That's where real world experience is appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote >
> Thanks, Dan. This was exactly the type of comparisons I was hoping
to get
> from owners of the different marques. Very informative. I'll be
test
> riding both of them, but that doesn't answer the question of
reliability.
> That's where real world experience is appreciated.
> >

I have a friend who has completed 180,000 trouble free miles within
two years in a diesel Audi Allroad [yes really]. I once had an Audi 90
quattro and didn't like it much and the parts were expensive. Also the
depreciation was horrendous here in the UK at that time.
I have owned a ML270 which was fine over two years with only poorly
aligned trim to worry about.
Presently own a BMW X5 which has done 15000 miles trouble free apart
from sluggish driver seat belt retraction.
Plenty of Volvo XC90's around here, which are well liked. I would not
imagine that they are the most reliable or hassle free cars though.

Huw


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

JPF <frickjphasgrownwearyofspam@noemail.net> wrote:
> Ever hear of the Audi All-Road? It's a direct competitor to the

excellent car. S6 Avant is of course even nicer, but costs twice as
much and isn't exported to US.

...
> The RX300 is now the RX330, but it's still boring. Lexus makes a
>great, boring product. Hell, they make Honda reliability look bad. I

it's like a SUV for the ladies IMO :)

...
>cup holder until the late 90's! Screw German law, you're losing sales
>to Asia over a cupholder!

I still fail to understand why the cupholders are such a major
headache in the US...

...
>4-Matic comes closest, but its frequent and costly ups make it
>less admirable in my book. The Asian trash can't hold a candle to

4-matic is nearly RWD in 'normal' conditions. when rear wheels start
slipping, front wheels get more torque. The implementation is much
better than the typical part-time 4WD SUV things, but still not that
convincing at least to me.

BMW had an excellent AWD in 325/525ix, quite close to Audi with two
viscous couplings and no overly complicated crap (a la MB
ProbleMatic). The best part: power distribution is between rear and
front is 63/37 (because when accelerating, rear axle gets more weight
& traction). This is IMO nicer than Quattro which I find annoyingly
FWD due to tendency to understeer. I have no experience on the newer
BMW xi models though.

--
harri
-95 525ixTA




--
o Harri Holopainen
o Hybrid Graphics Ltd.

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<RzqOb.28668$VS4.891977@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Dan Manning" <DM@ourworld.net> wrote in message
> news:budbr3$2qn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > "REInvestments" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:mYgOb.26659$VS4.828669@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > I currently have both an S420 (for sale) and a Ford Explorer lease car.
> > > I'd like to consolidate to one vehicle since my only use for the 4 wheel
> > > drive is a once per month ski excursion in the snow during the winter.
> > >
> > > And I'm at the point where I'd like to get dead bang great reliability
> > > from a vehicle over a 10 year ownership (which is about 140,000 miles
> > >I've been reading each of these newsgroups, as well as a few others for a
> > >while, and in each newsgroup there are ongoing complaints about the
> > >reliability of each marque. I'm ALMOST willing to go Japanese, but not
> > >quite yet.
> > >What are your recommendations for the most reliable 4 wheel
> > >drive car that will comfortably seat four adults, and why?

---- lots of good info snipped---

> >> Thanks, Dan. This was exactly the type of comparisons I was hoping to get
> from owners of the different marques. Very informative. I'll be test
> riding both of them, but that doesn't answer the question of reliability.
> That's where real world experience is appreciated.

Some of the vehicles mentioned previously and below are AWD rather
than 4wd. Some vehicles listed as AWD are actually "on-demand" AWD
rather than full time AWD. Volvo and Mercedes have on-demand AWD
systems, where the "other" two wheels get power only when the default
drive wheels begin to slip. Audi and Volkswagen (and Subaru) have
full-time AWD systems. Not sure about the other Japanese marques.

Japanese cars are known as being generally more reliable than
Europeans or Americans. Problem is, that the Japanese have just
recently discovered AWD in sedans, with one exception, that nobody
mentioned. That is Subaru. However, noone mentioned them probably
because even the largest Subarus will not comfortably seat an adult in
the back seat.

The recent "discoveries" of AWD for Japanese sedans include those by
Infiniti and Lexus. I have seen various surveys placing Infiniti or
Lexus as the most reliable marque in general. Even Ford and Chrysler
will reportedly offer large AWD sedans in 2004 or 2005. I wouldn't
trust their reliability as far as I could throw them. For all of
these, there are always the caveats about buying a model in its first
year of existence.

That leaves you with Audi A6 class and A8 class, and Mercedes E and
S-classes and the VW Phaeton, also not mentioned above. Volvo has AWD
in the S80 sedan, which should fit adults in the back seat.

The Audis are probably slightly more reliable than the Mercedes, but
neither Audi nor Mercedes is very reliable in the entire spectrum of
cars out there. Volvo has had AWD in the S60 for a few years, and in
wagons for longer, but there are so few out there that I really don't
know much about reliability. The VW Phaeton is an unknown quantity,
but it will likely be similar to the Audis as for reliability. But I
think that $65-80k for a VW will be a psychological stretch for most
folks.

I own 2 Audis, a '99 A4 Quattro and a 2000 A6 Quattro. I got the A4
at 43k, now has 76k. Got the A6 at 43k, now has 60k. Both with
Assured warranty. Had to replace a bearing in the A4, covered under
warranty. Had to replace a control arm in the A6, covered under
warranty. Not sure if that means they are "reliable" or not. Both
cars are rock solid, and of course, great in the snow. The cars with
AWD, of course weigh more than their 2wd counterparts. I figure, if
you're carrying that weight around, you'd might as well use it.
Mercedes and Volvo are default 2wd systems, with the 2nd axle only
activating "as needed." I like awd in summer & winter. If you only
hit the snow once per year, then that distinction btw full-time and
on-demand AWD probably doesn't matter to you.

Many folks out there drive audis for 150k-200k-250k miles and love
them. In general, they have their problems, but the Quattro system
has 23 years of history and development behind it. The word
"bulletproof" is often used, at leat for the Quattro systems, and for
some of the engines.
I am 6 feet tall, and with the front seat adjusted for me, I can sit
comfortably 'behind myself' in the A6. The A8 has several more inches
of room than the A6. If you want the most reliable marque out there,
go for Lexus or Infiniti. If you want the most reliable AWD *sedan*
that fits 4 adults comfortably, then go for an Audi Quattro.

Re: 4 wheel drive questions/reliability of vehicles
 

"Avantium" <avantium@munich.com> wrote in message
news:ad68da8c.0401180834.e742b38@posting.google.co m...
> Japanese cars are known as being generally more reliable than
> Europeans or Americans. Problem is, that the Japanese have just
> recently discovered AWD in sedans, with one exception, that nobody
> mentioned. That is Subaru. However, noone mentioned them probably
> because even the largest Subarus will not comfortably seat an adult in
> the back seat.

> I am 6 feet tall, and with the front seat adjusted for me, I can sit
> comfortably 'behind myself' in the A6. The A8 has several more inches
> of room than the A6. If you want the most reliable marque out there,
> go for Lexus or Infiniti. If you want the most reliable AWD *sedan*
> that fits 4 adults comfortably, then go for an Audi Quattro.

I am also 6'0" tall, and recently "sat behind myself" in a 2004 Subaru
Impreza, and it was fine. A lot better than my iX. Headroom in the front
was as good or better than any of the bimmers (E24, E30, E32, E34, E36)
I've spent time in, the controls were great, the interior was functional and
attractive.

The Impreza is probably the closest thing on today's market to my trusty
325iX -- 200 pounds heavier, 3 horsepower less, full time AWD with viscous
couplings, 2.5L motor, 5spd manual, 4-door, etc.

In nasty weather, the iX is utterly unflappable and unstoppable. At
316,000km it does take some maintenance, but I can't bear to part with it,
so I'll give it what it needs. It's never stranded me. It's a blast in the
dry, the wet, and the snow. It's got character and great road manners.

If I was forced to replace it I think I'd get an Impreza TS. About $23k CDN
vs the 325xi at $43k CDN. Subaru has been doing AWD in a logical way for 30
years. The cheapest used Xi on the market right now is around $25k CDN and
is saddled with all manner of electronic gagetry and driving "aids".

I'll lament the passing of my iX if and when the day comes. There aren't
many cars out there to replace it with.

-Russ.