> M3's outperform 993's everytime here in the Belgian 'Belcar' series >>
>
> Fairly meaningless. The 993s were roasting M3s among others in Rolex series
> races as well as in many other series. The M3 Coupe' in track trim was quite a
> competant car, but not enough to regularly oust 993s, and not with the sedan
> body.

maybe it doesn't beat the 993 everywhere and everytime, but I'd say it
can 'hang' with a 993 on track which was what you claimed it couldn't
do and made me react...

> It's not really fair to compare 993s to E46 M3s, as the E46 M3 has a few
> years of added development time under it's belt, and costs more than the
> average used 993 C2.

you started the M3/993 comparison IIRC

> << Vipers -> 996 -> M3 -> 993 >>
>
> Where have you been?

Belgium mostly, this weekend in Berlin

> 996 take a number of wins in the Rolex series every year
> aganist Vipers and C5-Rs. ...

I just told you the way things are in the Belcar series... I never
claimed Vipers rule all the tracks on this planet... But they do rule
Spa Francorchamps

> Audi spent years (albeit, in different decades) dominating Rally and Touring
> Car racing. They've won the ALMS series for the last 4 years straight, and
> they won overall at LeMans overall 3 years straight before this years Bentley
> victory. The Bentley, BTW, is built on the R8 platform.

sure, but the car I'm talking about is a car with its roots in the
80's, has nothing to do with R8's. last year however, the team
switched to a Viper ...

 

> If you're talking about the E46 M3 Vs. a 993, then yea.
> But a new E46 M3 costs
> more than the average used 993 Carrera 2

I don't know where you're located, but a 993 holds it value really
well over here, in a couple of years a used E46 M3 will cost about the
same as a 993 i recon. right know used E46 M3's are 40 to 50k euro,
993's are 30 to 40k euro's

> I thought it was implied that I was comparing the 993 C2 to the E36 M3 sedan.
> The E46 M3 coupe' is *nearly* on par with a 993 C2. But will lose it's *** to > a 996.

sorry, but if you are talking about "M3, M5, S6/RS6, WRX STi, or EVO",
then E46 is the one i think about

 

<< I don't know where you're located, but a 993 holds it value really
well over here >>

Where I'm at in So. Cal. it's a double edged sword. Porsches tend to hold very
good value, but the market out here is oversaturated with them. I was told that
Porsche sells more cars in So. Cal. than they do anywhere else in the world,
including Germany. In any case, used C2s with reasonable mileage can be had for
*about* 45k (C2S models run a little more) where the BMW dealers want close to
$60k for new M3s. The argument is irrelvant anyway, because I was talking about
sports sedans vs. the 993, and the E46 M3 is not avaliable as a sedan.

<< in a couple of years a used E46 M3 will cost about the
same as a 993 i recon >>

You reckon wrong, I figure. The 993s will continue to lose value (especially
seeing as the units being driven around are going to have increased mileage in
a few years), the M3 will too, but it started this comparo as a new car, rather
than as a used car.

<< sorry, but if you are talking about "M3, M5, S6/RS6, WRX STi, or EVO",
then E46 is the one i think about >>

If you'd bothered to read the entire post, you would have noticed that I was
comparing the 993 to SPORTS SEDANS. A sedan, by mandate of definition, must
have 4 doors. The E46 M3 is only avaliable with 2 doors. In any case the E46 M3
is only barely on par with the less expensive Porsche, a more refined machine
that I still believe will beat an E46 M3 around a track.

 

> If you'd bothered to read the entire post, you would have noticed that I was
> comparing the 993 to SPORTS SEDANS. A sedan, by mandate of definition, must
> have 4 doors. The E46 M3 is only avaliable with 2 doors. In any case the E46 M3
> is only barely on par with the less expensive Porsche, a more refined machine
> that I still believe will beat an E46 M3 around a track.

if you read the first posting that actually started this thread, this
guy was asking about a *wagon*, not a sedan. and yeah I know the M3
isn't available as a wagon either...

anyway, if you think the 993c2 is better on a track than a +/- 8 years
more modern machine with a superior engine and a superior drivetrain
layout, so be it, I don't really give a damn

I reckon he should get an rs4 anyway...

--
Dave

 

<< if you read the first posting that actually started this thread, this
guy was asking about a *wagon*, not a sedan. and yeah I know the M3
isn't available as a wagon either... >>

The argument didn't arise at the beginning of this thread. The argument arose
when someone other than the originator of this thread posted a messge, to which
I replied that there isn't a *sports sedan* on the market competant to match a
993 C2 on a track. If this timeline is to confusing for you, please refrian
from furthur posting.

<< anyway, if you think the 993c2 is better on a track than a +/- 8 years >>

Production of the 993 ended in late 1997, and the model (which had a very short
lifespan) had gotten a fair number improvments since it's introduction (it was
introduced in late' 93' if memory serves me).

<< more modern machine with a superior engine and a superior drivetrain
layout, so be it, I don't really give a damn >>

If you honestly believe that the engine in the M3 is superior to that in the
993, then you're deluded. As far as layout goes, I'm not sure you're really in
any position to call the 911's layout anything less than superior. Seeing as a
993 would match or beat an E46 M3 on any track, and a 996 would easily leave an
E46 M3 on any track, it's fairly obvious to those of us living in the real
world that the 911's RR layout is working quite well. And I don't really give a
damn if you give a damn, your self deluded opinion based in a world of apparent
BMW bias is of no consequence to me.

<< I reckon he should get an rs4 anyway.. >>

A model (based on his original postings) that would be out of his price range,
and was only sold in Europe. Good advice.

 

> I replied that there isn't a *sports sedan* on the market

whatever, I was talking about the M3 coupe, I thought I made myself
clear on that already

> If you honestly believe that the engine in the M3 is superior to that in the
> 993, then you're deluded.

I guess I'm deluded then ... some respectable automotive magazines
with me then

> As far as layout goes, I'm not sure you're really in
> any position to call the 911's layout anything less than superior. Seeing as a
> 993 would match or beat an E46 M3 on any track, and a 996 would easily leave an
> E46 M3 on any track, it's fairly obvious to those of us living in the real
> world that the 911's RR layout is working quite well.

in the real world it's a matter of physics actually...

> And I don't really give a
> damn if you give a damn, your self deluded opinion based in a world of apparent
> BMW bias is of no consequence to me.

lol, I don't own a BMW and probably never will, I have absolutely no
preference towards them. I would actually be more likely to buy a
Porsche than a BMW...
I'm just being realistic, I don't see the 911 as some 'holy car that
cannot be beaten on a track by an M3 a Viper or anything on this
planet'

> << I reckon he should get an rs4 anyway.. >>
>
> A model (based on his original postings) that would be out of his price range,
> and was only sold in Europe. Good advice.

hmm, I don't remember him mentioning price class/location?

anyway, what's the deal with this hostility? I just pointed out (in a
friendly way) that M3's are kicking 993 butt on our Belgian tracks...