Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, dave wrote:

> edited
>
> >From: Tero Patana tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi
> >> Theory time..........
> >> sounds like debris is in the oil pan and at higher rpms, the oil pump sucks
> >at
> >> a greater volume and the debris clogs the oil pump strainer.
> >> Then the oil pump pumps less oil to the lifters and that noise develops.
> >>
> >
> >This is very possible, I just wish this could be proven fact, and also
> >given a good solution to get rid of the debris.
> >
>
> get some oil pressure readings at different rpms and/or while that lifter noise
> is occuring
>


Just talked with the repairman, they had installed oil pressure gauge, and
measured the pressure while the problem was on. I don't know what the
readings were, but he said they were ok. If I talk to him again, I might
ask the readings, if he did wrote them down or is able to memorize them.
(Why I used _if_ instead of _when_ :) )

Next thing he suggested to try, is to open up the motor and try to find
what and where the clog is.

One guy suggested, that the... isolating thing between the engine and the
cover, which mostly keeps oil from spilling out, whatyoucallit?.... might
be worn so, that it partially blocks the oil journal. If the engine is
opened, it will be replaced the same time so it might correct the problem.
(or then again, it might not...)

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

Tero Patana <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> writes:

> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, JP Roberts wrote:
>
> > I had some noise at tilt, and some detonation under load at around 1950
> > rpm - on my 1.8T, and it all disappeared when I had the belt, tensioner and
> > the V-branch pulleys replaced. Since your car has over 140 thousand km in
> > the counter, you should already have had those replaced quite some time ago,
> > so I'd suggest your doing this before any further attempts at replacing the
> > pump.
> >
> Hmm.. given my great knowledge about English, what you mean with V-branch
> pulleys? When I was talking about V-branch before, I meant the other half
> of my V-engine. I recall 1.8T is not V, but straight.
>
> But if the belt is changed under 16 thousand km ago, I suppose it
> shouldn't be problem yet?

Did they change tensioner and idlers, and possibly the water pump at
that time? I have had the timing belt(s) changed on my 2.5tdi V6
recently, and I believe there were about four idlers and the
tensioner that were replaced at the same time, plus the water pump as
a precaution. The idlers alone were about EUR 550, and the waterpump
about 80, IIRC.

I doubt that this is your problem though.

>
> Thanks for comments,
>
> -Tero

Cheers,
Thomas

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
> >Subject: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
> >From: Tero Patana tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi
> >Date: 27/04/04 11:46 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404271318360.16997@paju.oulu.fi>
> >
> >The repairman said that the valve lifters need to be changed, as the noise
> >was too loud for normal operation.
>
> First mistake. Hydraulic lifters in overhead cam engines almost never fail.
> Noise from that area usually means an oil pressure problem. However from the
> garage's point of view they are relatively quick to change and a nice profit on
> the parts. You want to be asking for your money back as the symptoms stayed the
> same.
>

I have to talk about this, now the first priority is to get the engine
fixed. It costed around EUR400 (500$), so have to check the final costs to
see if it's compensated anyhow.

>
> The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure gauge and
> see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure warning light
> will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell you
> your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the bottom
> end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
>

The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
future, to remove the blockage.

>
> Also remember without us being able to hear the noise it may not be a lifter
> problem anyway. Something rattling against a cam belt cover perhaps or in the
> exhaust system. Anyway, it's all speculation until the oil pressure is checked.
> If the garage didn't do this as a first step then find someone else.
>
>
The problem is around the lifters, since no oil comes there when the
lifter gasket was removed. The pressure is ok, and I (for now) hope that I
don't have to change mechanic (again). In here, it's not that easy to find
reliable repairshop, and this one has served me quite well on earlier
occasions. Seems that they haven't encountered similar problem before, or
at least I suspect, since they haven't yet pinpointed the cause for the
problems.

Thanks for the comments,

-Tero

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?) 1996 Audi A6 2.6L V6-engine
 

Edited or Snipped

"Tero Patana" <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0404281409360.7775@paju.oulu.fi ...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
> >
> > The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure
gauge and
> > see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure
warning light
> > will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell
you
> > your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the
bottom
> > end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
> >
>
> The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
> at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> future, to remove the blockage.


I am with Dave Baker here.................
What are the readings at the different rpm ranges WHEN this noise is
experienced.
Oil pressure might be excellent at idle, but what about at higher rpm
levels, does it increase proportionately or actually drop down?

Ask your mechanic what the readings were/are so we can understand. And are
there two or only one oil pressure switch/sending unit on your engine? I am
wondering where he got the readings from and if he used a mechanical gauge
or electronic.

I have seen oil pressure so high (at idle and first start) that it cause the
lifters to pump up and the engine lost compression and stalled. Readings
are needed to help make diagnosis.
I have also fitted new oil pumps on engines with low oil pressure and the
old lifter clatter noise vanished!!
I usually work on 4/5 cylinder Audi/VW engines, so I am not too familar with
the V6 nor the VR6 engines. :-(
I have heard of oil passageways being clogged, possibly due to gaskets, and
causing oil pressure problems. Again I am not sure on your engine though.
Eyebrows are raised about your statement of finding debris inside of the
engine.

later,
dave

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

Tero Patana <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.58.0404271318360.16997@paju.oulu. fi>...
> (Sorry for this being so long, but I'm trying to tell everything so you
> can try to make the whole picture of the problem)
>
> I have a Audi A6 1996 with 2.6L V6-engine, with hydraulic valve lifters.
> The car has been driven for about 85k miles (<140k km)
>
> One and a half week ago when I started the engine, there was loud clatter,
> like when the valves don't work ok, but this one was _loud_, believe me.
>
> The oil change was due in near future, so I booked time from local
> repairshop for oil and filter change.
>
> I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
> I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
> before this week.
>

You drove the car 85K miles and only changed the oil once?

> Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
>
> -Tero

Um, I seriously hope that you bought this car used and have only had
it a couple thousand miles. I wouldn't leave *any* oil in an engine
longer than 10K miles, and I tend to change my own vehicles at 3-5K.

In any case, in response to your question, I'd be interested to know
actual oil pressure as measured at various places around the engine.
I dunno if you've got a sludge problem or actual engine wear, but I'd
be betting on one or the other.

nate

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?) 1996Audi A6 2.6L V6-engine
 

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, dave AKA vwdoc1 wrote:
>
> "Tero Patana" <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0404281409360.7775@paju.oulu.fi ...
> > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure
> gauge and
> > > see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure
> warning light
> > > will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell
> you
> > > your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the
> bottom
> > > end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
> > >
> >
> > The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
> > at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> > future, to remove the blockage.
>
>
> I am with Dave Baker here.................
> What are the readings at the different rpm ranges WHEN this noise is
> experienced.
> Oil pressure might be excellent at idle, but what about at higher rpm
> levels, does it increase proportionately or actually drop down?
>

Have to ask about this from the mechanic. Hopefully he'd known what he'd
done so far. I know that he said that the gauge pipe (or something) is too
short to be wired to the cabin, so he hadn't actually driven around.

But, if he said he did the measurement when the sound was on, then the
problem should have been seen also at low rpm, yes? As I think (with
what?), I suppose if the sound can be heard at low rpm, something is
blocking the oil from going to the lifters, so it it was pump problem at
high rpm, the sound should go away when the pressure rises. So it's not
pump problem, if my logic doesn't fail me.

> Ask your mechanic what the readings were/are so we can understand. And are
> there two or only one oil pressure switch/sending unit on your engine? I am
> wondering where he got the readings from and if he used a mechanical gauge
> or electronic.
>
I try to remember to ask these at next talk.


Thanks for comments,

-Tero

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
>
> >
> >The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
> >at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> >future, to remove the blockage.
>
> Measured under what conditions? Just in the garage at tickover? If the noise is
> intermittent then the oil pressure may be too. You need a gauge in the car to
> be able to see what happens when the noise starts. Given the cost of garage
> labour time and parts costs for trying random parts substitution at the owners
> expense it would make sense to have a gauge mounted temporarily inside the car,
> drive it for a bit and see what happens.
>

The gauge had too short something, so it couldn't be fitted inside the
car, thus it wasn't driven around. The noise was there when the
measurements were done.

I'm slowly thinking about new cars, it's just the car tax in this happy
land that is something un-heard of.

Just glanced few prices, for example Chrysler Sebring Sedan with 2.7L V6
engine with automatic transmission, starting from 42k$, with better
features 45k$, and the convertible (2.7L w/ automatic) is from 63k$.

Take that! In addition to outrageous income tax (moderate salary gives
around 30% tax, _high_ salary from 50 to over 60%), who can afford new
cars here? Sometimes I wish I worked in better country...

Still, I hope the mechanic can found the real cause, or if he doesn't,
hopefully someone here can give the exact clue on what to check. Good tips
here for now, have to talk with the mechanic if some of them should be
checked.

-Tero

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Nate Nagel wrote:
> Tero Patana <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.58.0404271318360.16997@paju.oulu. fi>...

> >
> > I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
> > I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
> > before this week.
> >
>
> You drove the car 85K miles and only changed the oil once?
>
It says:" I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I
bought the car, I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil."

So I guess that could be read as if I don't know what oils the previous
owner(s) did use, but when I bought the car, I (almost) immediately
changed the oils.


> > Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
> >
> > -Tero
>
> Um, I seriously hope that you bought this car used and have only had
> it a couple thousand miles. I wouldn't leave *any* oil in an engine
> longer than 10K miles, and I tend to change my own vehicles at 3-5K.
>

Yes, I have driven now with this car almost exactly 10k miles, with these
oils 6-7k, as I said in the post, the oil change was due in near future.
The Mobil 1 recommends around here something like 6-7k change interval. I
also change filter every time when the oil is changed.

> In any case, in response to your question, I'd be interested to know
> actual oil pressure as measured at various places around the engine.
> I dunno if you've got a sludge problem or actual engine wear, but I'd
> be betting on one or the other.
>

I try to get that information. Could someone tell what is "sludge", since
my English-inHead-dictionary doesn't recognize that word, and my Webster
is at work. Engine wear shouldn't be the issues, since it looks to be in
good condition (AFAIK), if you don't look at the debris inside the engine.

-Tero

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
 

Tero Patana wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>>Tero Patana <tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.58.0404271318360.16997@paju.oulu. fi>...
>
>
>>>I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
>>>I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
>>>before this week.
>>>
>>
>>You drove the car 85K miles and only changed the oil once?
>>
>
> It says:" I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I
> bought the car, I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil."
>
> So I guess that could be read as if I don't know what oils the previous
> owner(s) did use, but when I bought the car, I (almost) immediately
> changed the oils.
>
>
>
>>> Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> -Tero
>>
>>Um, I seriously hope that you bought this car used and have only had
>>it a couple thousand miles. I wouldn't leave *any* oil in an engine
>>longer than 10K miles, and I tend to change my own vehicles at 3-5K.
>>
>
>
> Yes, I have driven now with this car almost exactly 10k miles, with these
> oils 6-7k, as I said in the post, the oil change was due in near future.
> The Mobil 1 recommends around here something like 6-7k change interval. I
> also change filter every time when the oil is changed.
>
>
>>In any case, in response to your question, I'd be interested to know
>>actual oil pressure as measured at various places around the engine.
>>I dunno if you've got a sludge problem or actual engine wear, but I'd
>>be betting on one or the other.
>>
>
>
> I try to get that information. Could someone tell what is "sludge", since
> my English-inHead-dictionary doesn't recognize that word, and my Webster
> is at work. Engine wear shouldn't be the issues, since it looks to be in
> good condition (AFAIK), if you don't look at the debris inside the engine.
>
> -Tero

I think that what you are calling "debris" is what I'm thinking of as
"sludge." Catchall word for that black goo and/or hard crusty stuff
found inside an engine's oil system when something hasn't been right
with it.

nate

--
go dry to reply.
http://www.toad.net/~njnagel

Re: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?) 1996 Audi A6 2.6L V6-engine
 

edited

>
>From: Tero Patana tpatana@mail.student.oulu.fi
>Have to ask about this from the mechanic. Hopefully he'd known what he'd
>done so far. I know that he said that the gauge pipe (or something) is too
>short to be wired to the cabin, so he hadn't actually driven around.
>
>But, if he said he did the measurement when the sound was on, then the
>problem should have been seen also at low rpm, yes? As I think (with
>what?), I suppose if the sound can be heard at low rpm, something is
>blocking the oil from going to the lifters, so it it was pump problem at
>high rpm, the sound should go away when the pressure rises. So it's not
>pump problem, if my logic doesn't fail me.

Lifters will demand more oil pressure at higher rpms (they are doing more
work then).
So the oil pressure needs to be checked at different rpm levels since it
could be fine at low rpms, but not at high rpms. Please post the results!
thanks.
later,
dave