First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
Your wife shouldn't feel her ABS unless the tires were entering a state
of skidding. THAT would have really freaked her out. The first few
times you feel the noise/pedal feedback it can be disconcerting, but it
is better than the alternative. I think you're overestimating the
traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS. RE950's
have an agressive tread pattern and appear to have no siping. Not good
for snow. All weather/all-season is a joke of a classification. I've
driven on RE92's (all-season) that weren't awful when new, but got
noticably worse each winter. Those were replaced by Dunlop A2's (all
season) that were much better in dry and wet. However, in the snow they
were barely divable the first winter. The second winter, they were sled
runners. I swear i would have been better off with racing slicks. My
wife has an accord and has had various Michelin tires on her car. All
have had considerable siping for an all-season and they were the best
all-seasons i have driven in the snow. Having said that, we both have
dedicated snow tires now and they are head and shoulders above the best
all-seasons. If you want to stay with an all-season tire, try to find
one with a more suitable tread pattern than the RE950's. If you want to
know what works well in the snow, look at a snow tire. Block tread
pattern, siping everywhere!
Stu
Interious wrote:
> No, still not buying it, not for real world average driving shlubs in
> real world situations. My wife is driving a new Mazda with ABS and it
> freaks her out every time. Differentiate between scientifically minded
> drivers like you an me and the average Jane or Joe.
>
> Perhaps I should be driving professionally. If ABS were defeatable on
> this A4, I'm certain I could outperform it every time.
>
> ABS is simply too counter-intuitive. It is unbearably unnatural. Of
> all the mechanical devices ever invented, clearly the automobile is a
> contrivance that most intimately exists as an extension of the
> mind/body complex. save that of a instrument such as the violin. ABS
> short circuits that relationship in an intensely artificial fashion.
>
> Dave
>
>
>>ddhartwick writes:
>>
>>
>>>Sorry, not buying it.
>>>
>>>It is not readily apparent that ABS improves overall braking efficacy.
>>
>>Really? Then you are a fool if you think you can do a better job than Audi ABS
>>brakes. Take one of the schools I suggested. They will test you with and
>>without abs. I guarantee you can not do several of the exercises in the school
>>without using abs. You'd crash - but not burn, thankfully. They'll have you
>>do one of the exercises with abs. If you can match the same results *without*
>>abs, you should be driving professionally, not wasting your time on this ng.
>>Dave
>>
>>http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
of skidding. THAT would have really freaked her out. The first few
times you feel the noise/pedal feedback it can be disconcerting, but it
is better than the alternative. I think you're overestimating the
traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS. RE950's
have an agressive tread pattern and appear to have no siping. Not good
for snow. All weather/all-season is a joke of a classification. I've
driven on RE92's (all-season) that weren't awful when new, but got
noticably worse each winter. Those were replaced by Dunlop A2's (all
season) that were much better in dry and wet. However, in the snow they
were barely divable the first winter. The second winter, they were sled
runners. I swear i would have been better off with racing slicks. My
wife has an accord and has had various Michelin tires on her car. All
have had considerable siping for an all-season and they were the best
all-seasons i have driven in the snow. Having said that, we both have
dedicated snow tires now and they are head and shoulders above the best
all-seasons. If you want to stay with an all-season tire, try to find
one with a more suitable tread pattern than the RE950's. If you want to
know what works well in the snow, look at a snow tire. Block tread
pattern, siping everywhere!
Stu
Interious wrote:
> No, still not buying it, not for real world average driving shlubs in
> real world situations. My wife is driving a new Mazda with ABS and it
> freaks her out every time. Differentiate between scientifically minded
> drivers like you an me and the average Jane or Joe.
>
> Perhaps I should be driving professionally. If ABS were defeatable on
> this A4, I'm certain I could outperform it every time.
>
> ABS is simply too counter-intuitive. It is unbearably unnatural. Of
> all the mechanical devices ever invented, clearly the automobile is a
> contrivance that most intimately exists as an extension of the
> mind/body complex. save that of a instrument such as the violin. ABS
> short circuits that relationship in an intensely artificial fashion.
>
> Dave
>
>
>>ddhartwick writes:
>>
>>
>>>Sorry, not buying it.
>>>
>>>It is not readily apparent that ABS improves overall braking efficacy.
>>
>>Really? Then you are a fool if you think you can do a better job than Audi ABS
>>brakes. Take one of the schools I suggested. They will test you with and
>>without abs. I guarantee you can not do several of the exercises in the school
>>without using abs. You'd crash - but not burn, thankfully. They'll have you
>>do one of the exercises with abs. If you can match the same results *without*
>>abs, you should be driving professionally, not wasting your time on this ng.
>>Dave
>>
>>http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
C.R. Krieger wrote:
> I think this is our
> original poster's problem. He just isn't used to it yet and he hasn't quite
> figured out that the STOP sign he 'ABSed' through was one he was going to
> *slide* through anyway with his wheels locked.
I think you hit the problem on the head here. I think the problem is
more his tires than his brakes.
Stu
> I think this is our
> original poster's problem. He just isn't used to it yet and he hasn't quite
> figured out that the STOP sign he 'ABSed' through was one he was going to
> *slide* through anyway with his wheels locked.
I think you hit the problem on the head here. I think the problem is
more his tires than his brakes.
Stu
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
Stu Hedith writes:
>I think you hit the problem on the head here. I think the problem is
>more his tires than his brakes.
That was established very early on, Stu. He's driving with all season tires.
If he really wants to stop, he needs snows.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>I think you hit the problem on the head here. I think the problem is
>more his tires than his brakes.
That was established very early on, Stu. He's driving with all season tires.
If he really wants to stop, he needs snows.
Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
"Dave LaCourse" <davplac@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20031211115636.28735.00000746@mb-m01.aol.com...
<snip>
> I believe it was the Ohio State Police that had several accidents when
they
> first equipped themselves with abs Chevys, maybe even a fatality. They
> contacted GM and claimed their brakes weren't working properly. Again, it
was
> lack of training, lack of "what to expect", when applying abs in an
emergency.
It's also worth bearing in mind that the early systems would often release
all four wheels if all locked at the same time.
I've had it happen on a Rover [Sterling] 400, and it wasn't very pleasant.
(An idiot shot a red light and came at me on the wrong side of the read).
IIRC system fitted to BMWs simply kept all four wheels locked (not as
effective as working ABS, but a helluva lot better than having to fully
release the pedal and try again..)
Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of a driver
unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did appear to generate a
little lateral instability when I tested it)
H1K
news:20031211115636.28735.00000746@mb-m01.aol.com...
<snip>
> I believe it was the Ohio State Police that had several accidents when
they
> first equipped themselves with abs Chevys, maybe even a fatality. They
> contacted GM and claimed their brakes weren't working properly. Again, it
was
> lack of training, lack of "what to expect", when applying abs in an
emergency.
It's also worth bearing in mind that the early systems would often release
all four wheels if all locked at the same time.
I've had it happen on a Rover [Sterling] 400, and it wasn't very pleasant.
(An idiot shot a red light and came at me on the wrong side of the read).
IIRC system fitted to BMWs simply kept all four wheels locked (not as
effective as working ABS, but a helluva lot better than having to fully
release the pedal and try again..)
Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of a driver
unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did appear to generate a
little lateral instability when I tested it)
H1K
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
"Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> "Dave LaCourse" <davplac@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
> news:20031211115636.28735.00000746@mb-m01.aol.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > I believe it was the Ohio State Police that had several accidents when
> they
> > first equipped themselves with abs Chevys, maybe even a fatality. They
> > contacted GM and claimed their brakes weren't working properly. Again,
it
> was
> > lack of training, lack of "what to expect", when applying abs in an
> emergency.
>
> It's also worth bearing in mind that the early systems would often release
> all four wheels if all locked at the same time.
>
> I've had it happen on a Rover [Sterling] 400, and it wasn't very pleasant.
> (An idiot shot a red light and came at me on the wrong side of the read).
> IIRC system fitted to BMWs simply kept all four wheels locked (not as
> effective as working ABS, but a helluva lot better than having to fully
> release the pedal and try again..)
>
> Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of a
driver
> unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did appear to generate
a
> little lateral instability when I tested it)
EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on the
rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
Ronald
>
> H1K
>
>
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
In message <xCiCb.358$u52.87661@zonnet-reader-1>
"R@L" <reply@usent.com> wrote:
>
> "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of
> > a driver unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did
> > appear to generate a little lateral instability when I tested it)
>
>
> EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on the
> rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
Is Hairy thinking of the system (pioneered by MB?) and called something
like Electronic (or Emergency?) Brake Assist, which attempts to
determine the level of panic when pressing the brake pedal and, above a
certain level, automatically applies maximum braking effort?
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')
"R@L" <reply@usent.com> wrote:
>
> "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of
> > a driver unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did
> > appear to generate a little lateral instability when I tested it)
>
>
> EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on the
> rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
Is Hairy thinking of the system (pioneered by MB?) and called something
like Electronic (or Emergency?) Brake Assist, which attempts to
determine the level of panic when pressing the brake pedal and, above a
certain level, automatically applies maximum braking effort?
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
"Peter Bell" <peter@invalid.org.uk> wrote in message
news:112aaa5f4c.peter@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com...
> In message <xCiCb.358$u52.87661@zonnet-reader-1>
> "R@L" <reply@usent.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> > news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > > Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of
> > > a driver unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did
> > > appear to generate a little lateral instability when I tested it)
> >
> >
> > EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on
the
> > rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
>
> Is Hairy thinking of the system (pioneered by MB?) and called something
> like Electronic (or Emergency?) Brake Assist, which attempts to
> determine the level of panic when pressing the brake pedal and, above a
> certain level, automatically applies maximum braking effort?
Thanks, Peter - precisely that (Electronic Brake Distribution)
It sharply ramps the braking force (with ABS engaged), just in case the
driver gets hesitant. It is entirely unrelated to the pressure valve used to
prevent the rear wheels locking before the fronts (thereby inducing a spin.
And, believe me, that's perfectly feasible - I had a nasty tank-slapper once
on a new Citroen with a "pre-failed" unit). It's also the reason why, if one
only buys two tyres, they should always go on the back, rather than the
front. Oversteer can be fun. Reversing into a tree at high speed is
expensive, at very best ;o)
Back to the TT: this also gives a slewing motion as each wheel adjusts to
the local surface conditions under its own tyre. I wouldn't like to even try
and steer in any particular direction when it's activated, ABS or not! It's
enough to keep it in a straight line.
Probably less obvious on a car with a greater length:width ratio.
TBH, I've no idea how much /actual/ road movement it induces, but the
acceleration /feels/ significant - akin to an unexpected breakaway on a
bend.
H1K
news:112aaa5f4c.peter@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com...
> In message <xCiCb.358$u52.87661@zonnet-reader-1>
> "R@L" <reply@usent.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> > news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > > Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of
> > > a driver unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did
> > > appear to generate a little lateral instability when I tested it)
> >
> >
> > EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on
the
> > rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
>
> Is Hairy thinking of the system (pioneered by MB?) and called something
> like Electronic (or Emergency?) Brake Assist, which attempts to
> determine the level of panic when pressing the brake pedal and, above a
> certain level, automatically applies maximum braking effort?
Thanks, Peter - precisely that (Electronic Brake Distribution)
It sharply ramps the braking force (with ABS engaged), just in case the
driver gets hesitant. It is entirely unrelated to the pressure valve used to
prevent the rear wheels locking before the fronts (thereby inducing a spin.
And, believe me, that's perfectly feasible - I had a nasty tank-slapper once
on a new Citroen with a "pre-failed" unit). It's also the reason why, if one
only buys two tyres, they should always go on the back, rather than the
front. Oversteer can be fun. Reversing into a tree at high speed is
expensive, at very best ;o)
Back to the TT: this also gives a slewing motion as each wheel adjusts to
the local surface conditions under its own tyre. I wouldn't like to even try
and steer in any particular direction when it's activated, ABS or not! It's
enough to keep it in a straight line.
Probably less obvious on a car with a greater length:width ratio.
TBH, I've no idea how much /actual/ road movement it induces, but the
acceleration /feels/ significant - akin to an unexpected breakaway on a
bend.
H1K
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
"Peter Bell" <peter@invalid.org.uk> wrote in message
news:112aaa5f4c.peter@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com...
> In message <xCiCb.358$u52.87661@zonnet-reader-1>
> "R@L" <reply@usent.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> > news:5ChCb.1628$FN.418@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> > > Modern systems are much better, and EBD gets around the reaction of
> > > a driver unfamiliar with the system (although, on my TT, it did
> > > appear to generate a little lateral instability when I tested it)
> >
> >
> > EBD is only front/rear brake force distribution like the old thing on
the
> > rear axle but now electronic. It does nothing more.
>
> Is Hairy thinking of the system (pioneered by MB?) and called something
> like Electronic (or Emergency?) Brake Assist, which attempts to
> determine the level of panic when pressing the brake pedal and, above a
> certain level, automatically applies maximum braking effort?
>
> --
> Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with
'bellfamily')\\
That's called Brake Assistant in Audi cars.
Ronald
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
>I believe it was the Ohio State Police that had several accidents when they
>first equipped themselves with abs Chevys, maybe even a fatality. They
>contacted GM and claimed their brakes weren't working properly. Again, it was
>lack of training, lack of "what to expect", when applying abs in an emergency.
Exactly--fatal accidents due to ABS. It is not unreasonable to assume
that psychological factors--lack of knowledge, startle factor, lack of
intuitively correct feel, etc., probably greatly overwhelms ABS
advantages that are only theoretical unless in the hands of guys like
you.
Aditionally, How often do people brake AND steer around the car their
about to crash into? Some do, I do, many don't.
I do know how to threshold brake, fwiw, but you guys are obviously
more skilled and knowledgeable than I.
Finally--I must stress that I hope you're right, that ABS is superior.
I don't want to own a car that has permanently crippled brakes.
Dave
>first equipped themselves with abs Chevys, maybe even a fatality. They
>contacted GM and claimed their brakes weren't working properly. Again, it was
>lack of training, lack of "what to expect", when applying abs in an emergency.
Exactly--fatal accidents due to ABS. It is not unreasonable to assume
that psychological factors--lack of knowledge, startle factor, lack of
intuitively correct feel, etc., probably greatly overwhelms ABS
advantages that are only theoretical unless in the hands of guys like
you.
Aditionally, How often do people brake AND steer around the car their
about to crash into? Some do, I do, many don't.
I do know how to threshold brake, fwiw, but you guys are obviously
more skilled and knowledgeable than I.
Finally--I must stress that I hope you're right, that ABS is superior.
I don't want to own a car that has permanently crippled brakes.
Dave
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: First drive in snow probs: Tires, I hope...ABS brakes frightening
Snow--tires....there is no getting around it.
I do not understand this sentence: "I think you're overestimating the
traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS."
Dave
>Your wife shouldn't feel her ABS unless the tires were entering a state
>of skidding. THAT would have really freaked her out. The first few
>times you feel the noise/pedal feedback it can be disconcerting, but it
>is better than the alternative. I think you're overestimating the
>traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS. RE950's
>have an agressive tread pattern and appear to have no siping. Not good
>for snow. All weather/all-season is a joke of a classification. I've
>driven on RE92's (all-season) that weren't awful when new, but got
>noticably worse each winter. Those were replaced by Dunlop A2's (all
>season) that were much better in dry and wet. However, in the snow they
>were barely divable the first winter. The second winter, they were sled
>runners. I swear i would have been better off with racing slicks. My
>wife has an accord and has had various Michelin tires on her car. All
>have had considerable siping for an all-season and they were the best
>all-seasons i have driven in the snow. Having said that, we both have
>dedicated snow tires now and they are head and shoulders above the best
>all-seasons. If you want to stay with an all-season tire, try to find
>one with a more suitable tread pattern than the RE950's. If you want to
>know what works well in the snow, look at a snow tire. Block tread
>pattern, siping everywhere!
>
>Stu
>
>Interious wrote:
>
>> No, still not buying it, not for real world average driving shlubs in
>> real world situations. My wife is driving a new Mazda with ABS and it
>> freaks her out every time. Differentiate between scientifically minded
>> drivers like you an me and the average Jane or Joe.
>>
>> Perhaps I should be driving professionally. If ABS were defeatable on
>> this A4, I'm certain I could outperform it every time.
>>
>> ABS is simply too counter-intuitive. It is unbearably unnatural. Of
>> all the mechanical devices ever invented, clearly the automobile is a
>> contrivance that most intimately exists as an extension of the
>> mind/body complex. save that of a instrument such as the violin. ABS
>> short circuits that relationship in an intensely artificial fashion.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>>ddhartwick writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sorry, not buying it.
>>>>
>>>>It is not readily apparent that ABS improves overall braking efficacy.
>>>
>>>Really? Then you are a fool if you think you can do a better job than Audi ABS
>>>brakes. Take one of the schools I suggested. They will test you with and
>>>without abs. I guarantee you can not do several of the exercises in the school
>>>without using abs. You'd crash - but not burn, thankfully. They'll have you
>>>do one of the exercises with abs. If you can match the same results *without*
>>>abs, you should be driving professionally, not wasting your time on this ng.
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
I do not understand this sentence: "I think you're overestimating the
traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS."
Dave
>Your wife shouldn't feel her ABS unless the tires were entering a state
>of skidding. THAT would have really freaked her out. The first few
>times you feel the noise/pedal feedback it can be disconcerting, but it
>is better than the alternative. I think you're overestimating the
>traction of your tires when you think you could beat the ABS. RE950's
>have an agressive tread pattern and appear to have no siping. Not good
>for snow. All weather/all-season is a joke of a classification. I've
>driven on RE92's (all-season) that weren't awful when new, but got
>noticably worse each winter. Those were replaced by Dunlop A2's (all
>season) that were much better in dry and wet. However, in the snow they
>were barely divable the first winter. The second winter, they were sled
>runners. I swear i would have been better off with racing slicks. My
>wife has an accord and has had various Michelin tires on her car. All
>have had considerable siping for an all-season and they were the best
>all-seasons i have driven in the snow. Having said that, we both have
>dedicated snow tires now and they are head and shoulders above the best
>all-seasons. If you want to stay with an all-season tire, try to find
>one with a more suitable tread pattern than the RE950's. If you want to
>know what works well in the snow, look at a snow tire. Block tread
>pattern, siping everywhere!
>
>Stu
>
>Interious wrote:
>
>> No, still not buying it, not for real world average driving shlubs in
>> real world situations. My wife is driving a new Mazda with ABS and it
>> freaks her out every time. Differentiate between scientifically minded
>> drivers like you an me and the average Jane or Joe.
>>
>> Perhaps I should be driving professionally. If ABS were defeatable on
>> this A4, I'm certain I could outperform it every time.
>>
>> ABS is simply too counter-intuitive. It is unbearably unnatural. Of
>> all the mechanical devices ever invented, clearly the automobile is a
>> contrivance that most intimately exists as an extension of the
>> mind/body complex. save that of a instrument such as the violin. ABS
>> short circuits that relationship in an intensely artificial fashion.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>>ddhartwick writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sorry, not buying it.
>>>>
>>>>It is not readily apparent that ABS improves overall braking efficacy.
>>>
>>>Really? Then you are a fool if you think you can do a better job than Audi ABS
>>>brakes. Take one of the schools I suggested. They will test you with and
>>>without abs. I guarantee you can not do several of the exercises in the school
>>>without using abs. You'd crash - but not burn, thankfully. They'll have you
>>>do one of the exercises with abs. If you can match the same results *without*
>>>abs, you should be driving professionally, not wasting your time on this ng.
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>