blasphemy
 

BMWs on karquattro....

Re: blasphemy
 

avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
> BMWs on karquattro....

As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
worship' I see in Audi fans.

It shows up in the Audi club (NA) magazine (QUATTRO QUARTERLY) as
articles that seem to have been written by Audi's marketing department
as well as in messages like this one, above. I'll admit that, for the
first time in the decade or so that I've been a member, the last issue
had some actual *criticism* of an Audi from one author, but that's a
glaring exception, IME. I know the Audi club is a lot smaller
(~7000-10,000?) and relatively more reliant on the company for support
than is BMW CCA, but the flagrant ass-kissing sometimes just wears on
me. John Beckius' column on fixing Audis is as close as anything
comes to admitting that these cars have their quirky faults and to
addressing them in a reasonable manner.

In contrast, the BMW club is huge (over 70,000), as separate from BMW
NA and AG as it is possible to be for a marque club, and we actually
fight with them over things once in awhile. It's not unusual to see
overt criticism of mechanical or (especially lately, since the M
Coupe) the esthetic designs of BMWs. The ROUNDEL tries to publish
*all* subscribers' letters (within certain reasonable boundaries) and
this invariably carries some nasty words for BMW AG, NA, or a
dealership. Columnists and club officers also freely offer criticism.
This atmosphere bothers some who 'worship' BMWs, but I find it
refreshingly honest and remarkably helpful to discover that the
problems *I* see in BMWs are recognized by others - and often fixable
by *me*. In short, the company butt-kissing is minimal. Nonetheless,
the company recognizes the influence and value of the club to their
business and offers support for our activities.

Don't try telling me that Audis are that much better or that much
different. In terms of quality and design, they are equals. In terms
of character, Audis and BMWs are both essentially Bavarian. It is
this 'character' of the cars, compared to Stuttgart's overengineered
and overinsulated 'Schweinen' (my own term), that draws me to them. I
enjoy both marques, and their followers, immensely. I am not nearly
as impressed with other German marque clubs (PCA and Benz) for
slightly different reasons. The PCA members I know are a bit *too*
fanatical and their cars aren't the sports *sedans* I'm attracted to.
While the Benz cars are close to my preference, the Benz club folks
would generally rather clean and show their cars instead of *playing*
with them, as both BMW and Audi clubs do. Both PCA and Benz owners
tend to *have* work performed on their cars instead of rolling up
their sleeves, digging out the tools, and just doing it, as so many
Audi and BMW owners will. Our club shirts are *black* - it doesn't
show grease, oil, and brake dust! ;^D

It was the similarity of size, appearance, and *character* of the
first Audi 4000 Quattro sedans to the BMW E30 3 Series that got me
involved with them. At the same time, I owned a 2002 and I have had a
succession of E3 and E28 sedans since, as well as a couple more 4000s,
a 90 20V, and a Type 44 turbo; all Quattros. I haven't regretted my
years in any of them and I find *no* blasphemy in associating BMWs
with Audis. 'Avantium' needs to widen his/her automotive scope. I'd
suggest a brisk drive in an AWD Jaguar 3.0 Sport X-Type for starters.
It has converted my wife after 15 years of devotion to her Quattros
....
--
C.R. Krieger
Automotive Iconoclast

Re: blasphemy
 

C.R. Krieger writes:

>As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
>club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
>worship' I see in Audi fans.

<snippage>

About 20 years ago I joined the Boston chapter of BMW CCA. I didn't own a BMW.
I owned an 86 VW Quantum, and later a 1990 200 Turbo Quattro. I joined the
club to support it financially, and to ice race on Newfound Lake in NH. The
members of that particular chapter were a fine bunch of guys, and there was
little said about the fact that I was driving Audis vs their BMWs. I was
selected to participate in a BMW CCA phone poll. When the young lady found out
I didn't own a BMW, she was aghast as to why I would belong to a car club and
not support it by driving the marque. d;o)

I never joined it, but did check out the Quattro Club. Big difference. It
reminded me of the Porsche Club ("a *real* Porsche is a 911, not a 924, 944, or
928....."). I did not care for the atmosphere displayed. I have heard others
say the same thing about both of these clubs, but never a bad word about BMW
CCA.

Although I am a true Audi fan, I believe the BMW to be a wonderful, marvelous
automobile. Other marques have my respect, but sadly, none of them are
American.

Almost forgot: The Roundel is the best club rag out there. Does Satch Carlson
still have a column?

Dave
2003 RS6 (Avus/Ebony)
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Re: blasphemy
 

Ding ding: and C.R. comes out swinging.....

Easy there killer.....

Before my A4 (which I've owned 16 months),

I had the folgenden:
1985 528i (D)
1985 535i (US)
1998 Z3
1999 MZ3
...... alle mit 5-gang Getriebe, natürlich.

Only reason the wife got an A6 avant was because the 3 and 5-series
wagons weren't big enough.....she really liked a black 540i sport
wagon, and the 325Xi was so tight, but we were surprised that adults
could not fit in the back seat of even the 5-er.

Besides, you can't be all bad, having at one point lived in Ohio.....I
went to Kent State for a year as well...and you even top-post....even
better.

Recess until 9am Monday.

warp2_shadow@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote in message news <a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.com>. ..
> avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
> > BMWs on karquattro....
>
> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

---yada yada yada---

Re: blasphemy
 

In article <a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.com >, C.R.
Krieger says...
> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

SNIP

Nice post, fun to read and right on the dot.

P.S. Check the sig. ;)

--
" ..Audi's obsession with the quattro four wheel drive system means that
it'll never quite compete with a well sorted rear wheel drive machine
for ultimate driver satisfaction.. "
-- Tiff Needell, Audi TT Quattro Roadster - Top Gear

Re: blasphemy
 

> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

I don't know a lot about Audis but it seems Audi fans have had a lot
less to moan about in recent years. Maybe we should lend them Chris
Bangle for a few years, I'm sure he'd do just as good a job designing
Audis as BMWs (not!) ;-))

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Re: blasphemy
 

"C.R. Krieger" <warp2_shadow@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.c om...
> avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message
news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

Yes - and?? So what??

> It shows up in the Audi club (NA) magazine (QUATTRO QUARTERLY) as
> articles that seem to have been written by Audi's marketing department
> as well as in messages like this one, above. I'll admit that, for the
> first time in the decade or so that I've been a member, the last issue
> had some actual *criticism* of an Audi from one author, but that's a
> glaring exception, IME. I know the Audi club is a lot smaller
> (~7000-10,000?) and relatively more reliant on the company for support
> than is BMW CCA, but the flagrant ass-kissing sometimes just wears on me.

So, what is so terribly wrong with asskissing, as long as the asses are so
wonderful?? I kiss ass every single day, the ass of my beatiful Audi. Audis
have the most wonderful asses in the world, and I just love kissing them -
quite flagrantly.

> comes to admitting that these cars have their quirky faults and to
> addressing them in a reasonable manner.

No, you are so wrong here. All Audis are totally faultless - totally.

> Don't try telling me that Audis are that much better or that much
> different. In terms of quality and design, they are equals. In terms
> of character, Audis and BMWs are both essentially Bavarian.

All Audis have class, while BMWs are for dopedealers and other tattooed
gangbangers, with gold chains around their necks, particularly BMW cabrios.
And the Z3 is for, oh well, you know who, the male hairdressers among
us.................. There is a huge image difference between Audis and
BMWs, at least here.

Re: blasphemy
 

I guess what I notice most is:
--how *so much* meaning (?) can be derived (extracted?) from four
words
--how so many stereotypes can be applied to a person not known to the
writer
--that my original post on the audi NG was cross posted to the BMW NG,
perhaps to start some kind of fight(?), in which no one has chosen to
engage
-- how much offense can be taken from such a short message

I love BMWs, have had 4 of them, but I happen to own an Audi now
(actually 2). Like them pretty well, too.

I've owned a car or 2; forgot to mention VWs of the A1, A3 and A4
chasses, a Maserati TC, and a Merkur XR4ti, in addition to tbe BMWs
listed in my previous post. For the record, might as well mention,
gulp, a 77 Chevy Nova, an '85 Renault Alliance (the one to
watch...driving off a cliff) and an AMC Hornet wagon.

I've seen many a post by Mr. Kreiger, and he seems knowledgeable about
many automotive issues; I'm surprised by the tenor of the comments.
No big deal.

No underlying meaning or agenda. Just like in the original post.
That's all.


warp2_shadow@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote in message news:<a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google. com>...
> avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
> > BMWs on karquattro....
>
> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

30+ lines of "yada-ness" snipped--

'Avantium' needs to widen his/her automotive scope. I'd
> suggest a brisk drive in an AWD Jaguar 3.0 Sport X-Type for starters.
> It has converted my wife after 15 years of devotion to her Quattros
> ...

Re: blasphemy
 

davplac@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message news:<20031030123341.01541.00000002@mb-m04.aol.com>...
>
> About 20 years ago I joined the Boston chapter of BMW CCA. The
> members of that particular chapter were a fine bunch of guys, and there was
> little said about the fact that I was driving Audis vs their BMWs.

Chamberlain, Izor, and the gang. Yup. Great folks.

> in a BMW CCA phone poll. When the young lady found out
> I didn't own a BMW, she was aghast as to why I would belong to a car club and
> not support it by driving the marque. d;o)

I'm aghast that they allowed someone that dumb on the phone ...

> I never joined it, but did check out the Quattro Club. Big difference. It
> reminded me of the Porsche Club ("a *real* Porsche is a 911,
> I did not care for the atmosphere displayed.

Yeah; know what you mean. You ought to hear all the whining from the
Q folks now that the club is the Audi *Car* Club of America and allows
FWDs!

> Almost forgot: The Roundel is the best club rag out there. Does Satch
> Carlson still have a column?

You need to rejoin. Satch is the *Editor*! No kidding!
--
C.R. Krieger
Been there; done that.

Re: blasphemy
 

avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message news:<ad68da8c.0310311704.7945fa91@posting.google. com>...
> I guess what I notice most is:
> --how *so much* meaning (?) can be derived (extracted?) from four
> words
> --how so many stereotypes can be applied to a person not known to the
> writer

Actually, I didn't *quite* apply them to *you*. I did take your
remark as an opportunity to vent about Excessive Audi Adulation, so it
ended up being about *them*, not about *you*.

> --that my original post on the audi NG was cross posted to the BMW NG,
> perhaps to start some kind of fight(?), in which no one has chosen to
> engage

Now, I *told* you I was doing that ... ;^)

> -- how much offense can be taken from such a short message

I wasn't offended by your message per se. I am not even offended by
the most annoying of the marque worshipers (BMW or Audi). I am more
intrigued by them. So I criticize. It's what I do. I certainly hope
you weren't offended.

> I've seen many a post by Mr. Kreiger, and he seems knowledgeable about
> many automotive issues; I'm surprised by the tenor of the comments.
> No big deal.

Thank you. Don't take it personally. I didn't mean it that way. And
don't spell German names wrong. It's pronounced 'KrE-gur', not
KrI-gur', so the 'i' comes first.

> 'Avantium' needs to widen his/her automotive scope.

OK; *this* was directed personally. Trust me; my idea (below) is
still a good one. Just for yucks. Those sales guys have a *pile* of
X-Types hanging around their lots (like a 120-day supply, last I'd
heard), so they're delighted to have *someone* interested in them.
Tell 'em you've got a couple Audis and BMWs and you'd heard these
little Jags were pretty cool. They don't have to know you're not
buying. And you might be surprised.

> > I'd
> > suggest a brisk drive in an AWD Jaguar 3.0 Sport X-Type for starters.
--
C.R. Krieger
Been there; done that.

Re: blasphemy
 

CR Krieger writes:

>You need to rejoin. Satch is the *Editor*! No kidding!

Now *I'm* aghast! d;o)

I met Satch at a SCCA Rally in NH a number of years ago. I brought along my
copy of "Running on Empty" and he signed it. Funny guy - he can spin a yarn.
I enjoyed his columns in AutoWeek until he..... well, you know. He told this
one: He was trying to impress his date with a "bootleg turn", i.e. put in a
tiny bit of turn to the left and pull the parking brake. Rear wheels lock up
and around you go until you are in the next lane heading in the other
direction. One problem, however. Big problem too. He was driving a Saab (his
favorite marque) and that particular model had the parking brake on the drive
wheels. When he pulled it, the car skidded to a straight stop on the snow
covered highway. Saab was fwd. I don't think his date was impressed.

As I type, I'm sitting here wearing the Yokohama (tires) long sleeve t-shirt
that they gave away at the Boston convention a few years back. "Get seriously
tired" with a 5 Series and a Yoky tire on the back.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Re: blasphemy
 

In article <a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.com >,
warp2_shadow@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote:

> avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message
news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
> > BMWs on karquattro....
>
> As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active
> club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque
> worship' I see in Audi fans.

I think this is because the underdog always has to
make more of himself than the overdog. The overdog
can afford to be critical, the underdog cannot.

Audi people are like Mac people, and I count myself
a member of both groups.

Re: blasphemy
 

See below.

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"C.R. Krieger" <warp2_shadow@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.c om...
> avantium@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message
news:<ad68da8c.0310291908.9a42a47@posting.google.c om>...
[.................]>
> Don't try telling me that Audis are that much better or that much
> different. In terms of quality and design, they are equals. In terms
> of character, Audis and BMWs are both essentially Bavarian.

FROM DAS: What is that, exactly? Do they run on Weisswurst and beer instead
of petrol?


It is
> this 'character' of the cars, compared to Stuttgart's overengineered
> and overinsulated 'Schweinen' (my own term), that draws me to them.

FROM DAS: I wish! (that they were still over-engineered).


[.............]
> While the Benz cars are close to my preference, the Benz club folks
> would generally rather clean and show their cars instead of *playing*
> with them, as both BMW and Audi clubs do. Both PCA and Benz owners
> tend to *have* work performed on their cars instead of rolling up
> their sleeves, digging out the tools,

FROM DAS: Absolutely right! Also probably more automatic Mercs supplied
that BMWs, at least in certain territories. We have better things to do
than fiddle about in the engine compartment.

Actually, I once read that if Merc engineers would habe their way the cars
would only come with a speedometer and fuel cap, as everything else is
unnecessary...


and just doing it, as so many
> Audi and BMW owners will. Our club shirts are *black* - it doesn't
> show grease, oil, and brake dust! ;^D
>
...............................> ...
> --
> C.R. Krieger
> Automotive Iconoclast

Re: blasphemy
 

In article <chiefhiawatha-0111032058140001@10.0.1.2>,
chiefhiawatha <chiefhiawatha@yahoo.comREMOVE> wrote:
> I think this is because the underdog always has to
> make more of himself than the overdog. The overdog
> can afford to be critical, the underdog cannot.

> Audi people are like Mac people, and I count myself
> a member of both groups.

When it comes to pecking order, there are always more sheep than
sheepdogs. Just to mix up as many animal analogies as possible.

--
*You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me *

Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Re: blasphemy
 

"Dori Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk> wrote in message news:<3fa789a8$0$9468$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com >...
> "C.R. Krieger" <warp2_shadow@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a8a578a8.0310300757.72fccbd6@posting.google.c om...

> > Don't try telling me that Audis are that much better or that much
> > different. In terms of quality and design, they are equals. In terms
> > of character, Audis and BMWs are both essentially Bavarian.
>
> FROM DAS: What is that, exactly? Do they run on Weisswurst and beer instead
> of petrol?

'Character' *is* difficult to define. Think of it in terms of
American cars vs. Asian cars vs. European cars. Each has a distinct
but hard-to-define feel about it. An automotive enthusiast will
almost immediately recognize them. A little more refined 'automotive
palate' will be able to tell the difference between Scandinavian (odd
yet appealing ergonomics and relentlessly effective in snow for no
apparent reason), French (too-soft seats; far more body roll than
anyone can believe), and English (Connolly hides surrounded by too
many quirks to enumerate, but start with electrical problems) cars.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I find Audis and BMWs to have a certain difference
about them.

> It is
> > this 'character' of the cars, compared to Stuttgart's overengineered
> > and overinsulated 'Schweinen' (my own term), that draws me to them.
>
> FROM DAS: I wish! (that they were still over-engineered).

They still are. That's not necessarily a *good* thing, IMO. For
instance, what's the point of developing a proprietary *radio antenna
connector*?
--
C.R. Krieger
(Still the BMW Guy)

Re: blasphemy
 

davplac@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message news:<20031101184324.14963.00000132@mb-m14.aol.com>...
> CR Krieger writes:
>
> >You need to rejoin. Satch is the *Editor*! No kidding!
>
> Now *I'm* aghast! d;o)
>
> I met Satch at a SCCA Rally in NH a number of years ago. I brought along my
> copy of "Running on Empty" and he signed it. Funny guy - he can spin a yarn.
> I enjoyed his columns in AutoWeek until he..... well, you know.

Hey, everybody *says* it was technically not illegal in Alaska at that
time! ;^)

> He told this
> one: He was trying to impress his date with a "bootleg turn", i.e. put in a
> tiny bit of turn to the left and pull the parking brake. Rear wheels lock up
> and around you go until you are in the next lane heading in the other
> direction. One problem, however. Big problem too. He was driving a Saab
> (his favorite marque) and that particular model had the parking brake on the
> drive wheels.

Yeah; I learned about that stuff a few years back. Back when *I*
tried the same thing, it was in a Toyota FX-16 that, although FWD, had
the handbrake acting where God & Steven J. Cannell intended. That
little black 'Sawed-off Japanese Snotbox' would do a perfect 180 every
time. Sometimes, I really miss that car.

> As I type, I'm sitting here wearing the Yokohama (tires) long sleeve t-shirt
> that they gave away at the Boston convention a few years back. "Get seriously
> tired" with a 5 Series and a Yoky tire on the back.

Oktoberfest 1994? If so, I think you need to take another look at the
back of that shirt. The one they gave *me* (you might have remembered
a freshly-painted white Audi 4000CS Quattro on brand new Yokos there)
had a red E36. Yup; we might've 'met' - if you can call rubbing
elbows in a crowd of over 1000 BMW fanatics 'meeting'. But then,
that's how I know Satch, Farnsworth, Chamberlain, Taylor, Calabrese,
and the rest of the notorious 'CCA reprobates, too. You know: a
coupla' drinks and a few swapped yarns.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there, too!)