shinbone

Well said just about all I was thinking but too tired last night to say. Wow and I thought I was nasty to jupi, LOL.

cheeba

Wow, that's a lot of assumptions about what Jupi stated. He never mentioned the retail price of diesel, nor the quality of the pump diesel. He also didn't mention anything about old diesels or pollution. In fact, all he did was state the way that it is, and a few reasons why. It is very true that North American passenger-vehicle mechanics are generally not experienced in diesel - the real absurdity is assuming that they are because there are a couple of TDIs available to the public. Note that he said "mechanics" and not "VW/Audi mechanics". How many mechanics do you know that can pop-test diesel injectors, dealership included? Furthermore, it's not all that difficult to find diesel fuel, but it can be a pain in the *** - especially to find good diesel - so his statement about finding diesel is valid in the eyes of consumers.

Due to plethoric legislation, the adoption of diesel in NA is occurring much slower than was the case in EU decades ago. No bones about it, though - it's coming. Many manufacturers are planning to bring their diesels here, as we'll see in the next 5 or so years.

Wake me up when the 400HP/600TQ RS4D arrives...

jupi

Well, this makes for a very interesting discussion.
Thank you cheeba for clarifying some of the points I made. I'm not a fan of personal attacks, so I'm not going to fuel this further.
All I was trying to say is that people who really want to buy a diesel vehicle would appreciate a broader perspective on things, rather than just the engine technology.

One of the biggest advantages of diesel IMHO is direct injection and, as a result, a higher torque at low rpms and lower fuel consumption. With 2.0TFSI, Audi managed to bring gas engine as close to diesel as never before.

Although I live in Oakville, I oftentimes take trips to US, as some of us do. During my last trip to Chicago I paid very close attention at diesel availability along the way and I have to say it was very poor. Not that I stopped at every gas station along the way, but of all stations I stopped, only one had diesel, and I'm not sure about the quality of it.

I did a comparison of expenditures for gas vs. diesel for A3 and Q7 models and it looks like one could recoup the extra cost for diesel engine only by the end of 3 years for A3 and after 7 years for Q7. This assumes current gas prices, posted fuel economy ratings and 25,000km per year mileage. For anyone interested, please see attached.

shinbone

JUPI, please don't feel attacked in anyway by my jibs.
I would however add no reputable sales person would sell diesel to someone that only drives 25,000km a year. I do appreciate your chart as a 40000 minimum driver its much more encouraging to spend for a diesel. Resale value goes up too. Enjoy your day

tomashek

Awesome job jupi you have done with that calculation, maybe numbers along with some hard facts finally get through, that diesel in North America is NOT THAT GREAT IDEA! At least not yet. Here is couple of reasons for it:
1. Prize of the car. Prize it very important factor. What seems to look like great fuel economy out of diesel (lets leave torque advantage aside for now) - translates to way higher initial car price.
2. Price and availability of the diesel fuel. It differs from region to region, but lately up in Barrie I have noticed huge surge in diesel price. Now Shell sells it for 1.21! I know it will come lower during summer time as diesel fuel gets higher prices during winter time, but really. I have used Costco station for premium and filled up today for 1.14 So there you have it.
3. Diesel fuel quality in Canada/NA. Just google it and you easily will find some gruesome stories about it, including warranty void or refusal. In Canada, diesel fuel quality struggles as there is still (sadly) not much demand for it. It's by far not what you will buy in Europe, so you have to buy it here at higher grade and pay couple cents/liter more. So when Shell says 1.21 today, your real prize would be 1.24. Remember that or you will be taking chances every time you fill up. And it apparently it doesn't take much.
Main reason why diesel is so popular in Europe, is because car with this engine cost same as with petrol engine. There's not much of a difference, if any at all. Other main factor is that they simply don't drive long distances in Europe as much as we do here. And diesel is perfectly suitable for that. Also fuel economy doesn't suffer as much during the winter as with petrol.

I lived in Europe for 28 years so it's no surprise for me. Don't get me wrong here, I'm fan of diesel cars, but couple fundamental things need to change here before I would consider one in Canada.

jlr_1304

Well, sorry, i cannot find a link for that. Was in the newspaper. I will write them and ask for a link.

Speaking of gas prices, Do you guys in GTA have price fluctuations like we have in montreal region? was $1.28 (reg gas) last sunday. It is now at $1.16.

Diesel prices usually follows reg gas prices.

My brother, who works at Esso as a chemical engineer, said that diesel quality was much better than some years ago as the sulfur was dropped (or reduced) quite a bit.

Price wise, Diesel is for a high mileage driver.

sakimano

umm...yes he did
umm...yes he did


What I said about soot was a joke. He'd reeled off a few steretotypes and that one was the only one he missed. Note the smily face cheeba. That means someone's joking.

sakimano

I sure hope you don't consider that a personal attack (my comments from earlier today). It wasn't meant to be. Just a good debate.

you should add the cost of an S-tronic dual clutch transmission to your A3 2.0 FSI car. The TDI cars come with S-Tronic as standard equipment. That's $1650...thus would chop your time to recoup in less than half of the 3 years your sheet originally surmised.

The TDI also has an 'Electric auxiliary air heater ' while the gasoline car doesn't. This is to help heat the interior of the car sooner than the traditional 'engine' driven heat system. Maybe because diesels take longer to heat up than petrol engined vehicles.

jupi

sakimano - no offence taken. I enjoy good debate, although consider it a waste of time to disprove other people's twisting my posts. I agree with cheeba's post completely.
It's obvious I was talking about diesel engine, not diesel fuel (it doesn't take a genius to check fuel prices online or at the pump) [I said manufacture, not refine]
Quality of pump diesel: I talked about diesel Q5 coming to Canada, diesel fuel was here long before we were born.
Otherwise good debate though.

You're absolutely correct in regards to S-tronic option for TFSI, I missed that point, just picked standard configurations for different engine models.

At the same time the Q7 calculations are bang on and one could argue Q5 is much closer to Q7 than to A3.
A3 doesn't come with TDI quattro and is much lighter than Q5:
Q5 2.0TFSI is 1895kg while Q7 3.0TFSI is 2295kg, A3 2.0TFSI on the other hand is merely 1390kg

jupi

I've found the article that's related to Audi diesels. According to the source, Audi will add a diesel version of every model it makes by 2015. 4 more years to go.

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1051003_audi-to-add-diesel-versions-of-every-model-it-makes-by-2015

This article gives 5 reasons why diesel will not dominate US car market. My favourite one is number 3.

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1051249_five-reasons-small-diesels-wont-dominate-the-u-s-car-market