Supercharger for B7 S4
10-21-2010, 01:45 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Supercharger for B7 S4
Hey guys,
I apologize if this topic has been flogged to death, but I'm new around here.
Anyways I have a 2007 B7 S4. Recently I've been looking into some performance modifications, and have seen some superchargers from some tuning companies in the US. I'm just wondering if anyone has had any experience with their products, some particulars would be ease of installation and reliability.
Companies that I've seen selling SCs are VF engineering and PES Tuning
Thanks,
N
I apologize if this topic has been flogged to death, but I'm new around here.
Anyways I have a 2007 B7 S4. Recently I've been looking into some performance modifications, and have seen some superchargers from some tuning companies in the US. I'm just wondering if anyone has had any experience with their products, some particulars would be ease of installation and reliability.
Companies that I've seen selling SCs are VF engineering and PES Tuning
Thanks,
N
10-21-2010, 07:18 AM
#2
Audi Forum - Posts like an HORCH
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Burlington, Ontario
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Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
First off let me welcome you to the forum. You are right when you say that we probably have had lengthy discussions regarding mods on the B6/7 S4s. Use the search tool above to find some of the previous threads.
Personally if you are really interested and serious about mods to your S4 look up JHMotorsport for details. The information that I have is that the above mentioned SC do not perform as advertised and are overpriced.
Let us know how you make out.
Personally if you are really interested and serious about mods to your S4 look up JHMotorsport for details. The information that I have is that the above mentioned SC do not perform as advertised and are overpriced.
Let us know how you make out.
10-25-2010, 11:17 AM
#4
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Posts: 1,155
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
^^^sadly MTM's kit
a) costs $25,000
b) has provided zero proof of any performance. Typical with supercharged Audis.
OP, here are the B6/7 S4 supercharger options with quarter mile data to give an idea of performance in a straight line (the only real way to measure 'power' for a 'power adder', even if you don't ever plan on dragstripping your car...it's just a good benchmark). Here are some examples of quarter mile times for some similar cars
Audi RS4 12.8@108
Audi R8 4.2 12.6@110
BMW M3 12.6@112
BMW M5 12.5@113
Cadillac CTS-V 12.3@116
Mercedes C63 12.5@115
MTM supercharger $25,000 - not much is known about this kit because a) nobody bought them due to the obscene price and b) MTM is in Europe and doesn't seem to share performance data for their products too readily. Nobody on the forums has purchased this kit to give us an idea of what it's all about so very little is known. MTM claims 450hp crank. We know nothing else other than cost can be negotiated down to $25,000
VF Engineering Supercharger $9500 - they used an Eaton M90 supercharger and this has been shown to be a rather undersized charger for our cars. The maximum CFM capabilities of the M90 according to Eaton themselves, are about 750 CFM. You can download a compressor map to see for yourself at Eaton.com. 750 CFM = about 450 crank hp. BUT...it takes about 30 hp to run the M90 at this level so the net max output is about 420hp in this application. CRANK. That's RS4 like power levels...so we should see RS4 type performance, right? We do. The quarter mile times VF produced were around 13.0@107mph. The rest of the VF cars refuse to go to the quarter mile. Why? Because the problem with performing like a 420hp car is...VF PROMISED 500HP IN THEIR MARKETING OF THE KIT! Oops.
PES $8500- basically the story here is EXACTLY like the VF kit. Same hardware, same promised 500hp, same refusal to do ANY performance testing of any kind to back up their claims. The first few owners of PES kits took their cars to the dragstrip, and depending on their modlists, they performed like a 420hp RS4 (12.7-13.0@107-110mph). All around PES sold more kits because they jumped to the market first. Unfortunately every single PES car on the forums had LOADS of problems, ranging from slipping/popping belts requiring extensive downtime and redesigns, to catastrophic engine failures due to intercooler leaks. All around PES solidified their reputation as the Audi tuner most likely to walk into a sharp stick in the dark. Here's a thread that explains a good part of this story....
JHM supercharger: under $8000 (they said 'less than the other kits for price, but it's not announced yet) - it is a centrifugal supercharger that, in the words of the company, is capable of 700hp. Of course to do this, you'd need to spend a few grand upgrading the internals of the engine with JHM forged pistons and rods. On STOCK internals, and just bolting the supercharger up to your car you should expect to see something north of 400 wheel horsepower (a.k.a. 500hp+).
They added one to a car that had one mod - gutted pre-cats in the OEM downpipes (with main cats still in place) . Stock everything else. The car was a B6 S4 with 220,000 km (not a typo) and it was an automatic. This car ran at the dragstrip on an 85 degree night in Detroit this summer. Density Altitude was about 2500 feet. Despite all of this, the car ran 12.58 @ 113mph, faster than any PES/MTM/VF car ever. Faster than even the PES or VF M90 supercharged RS4s as a matter of fact. Those RS4s with a supercharger ran 12.60 for the most part in optimal cool temperatures. The JHM car STILL beat them in terrible conditions with no supporting mods, on a 220,000km old car...with an automatic transmission no less.
Then JHM added their supercharger to JHM's in-house car over in Lathrop, California and put something like 10,000 miles on the kit. After this, they took it to the dragstrip. The owner of JHM's wife drives this car as her daily driver. Has baby seats and all
. The car has JHM headers, Fast Intentions catback, JHM intake manifold, LW rotors, LW crank pulley, LW flywheel, JHM clutch etc. When they went to the dragstrip, they did so in the worst possible conditions - 85 degree heat with plenty of humidity, and 2500 foot Density Altitude. They also did so full weight/full interior. Again, this car has frigging babyseats in it.
The car ran 12.2 @ 119 mph.
For some perspective, JHM tests their parts at the dragstrip to show delta vs. stock or their competitors. That's one reason they have a huge following in the B6/7 S4 world. Their parts also work!
Finally, here's a great little eye opener. This is VF Engineering's poster child - it is a yellow B6 S4 that has had a B7 RS4 body conversion done. It has every bolt on available including lightweight breaks, flywheel, JHM clutch, JHM headers, 2.5" catback etc. It also has a VF engineering supercharger (their Eaton M90 kit). After much anticipation, JHM raced this car with their in house car in California when the VF car's owner came in for help with problems he was having. Basically both cars have the same modlists...weighed the same...with the only exception being VF supercharger vs. JHM supercharger.
Here's the result:
Here's the same car racing JHM BEFORE JHM put their supercharger on. Basically the same modlist, but JHM has their car with NO supercharger...and with a JHM tune. The VF supercharged car on the other hand has all the same mods but with VF's supercharger + SC tune (by GIAC)
They did a few runs with JHM running just all motor. Then JHM turned on their 70 whp nitrous kit. The JHM car makes 320whp all motor, and about 400 WHP on the nitrous. The VF car dyno'd 400 whp...on the same dyno, the same week as JHM dyno'd. So, the VF car should thump the JHM car in the first few races right? Nope. Supercharged S4s on the dyno produce some really inaccurate results that don't necessary reflect how the car will run in the real world. This video is the best example of that, along with the other quarter mile failures for VF and PES kits.
a) costs $25,000
b) has provided zero proof of any performance. Typical with supercharged Audis.
OP, here are the B6/7 S4 supercharger options with quarter mile data to give an idea of performance in a straight line (the only real way to measure 'power' for a 'power adder', even if you don't ever plan on dragstripping your car...it's just a good benchmark). Here are some examples of quarter mile times for some similar cars
Audi RS4 12.8@108
Audi R8 4.2 12.6@110
BMW M3 12.6@112
BMW M5 12.5@113
Cadillac CTS-V 12.3@116
Mercedes C63 12.5@115
MTM supercharger $25,000 - not much is known about this kit because a) nobody bought them due to the obscene price and b) MTM is in Europe and doesn't seem to share performance data for their products too readily. Nobody on the forums has purchased this kit to give us an idea of what it's all about so very little is known. MTM claims 450hp crank. We know nothing else other than cost can be negotiated down to $25,000
VF Engineering Supercharger $9500 - they used an Eaton M90 supercharger and this has been shown to be a rather undersized charger for our cars. The maximum CFM capabilities of the M90 according to Eaton themselves, are about 750 CFM. You can download a compressor map to see for yourself at Eaton.com. 750 CFM = about 450 crank hp. BUT...it takes about 30 hp to run the M90 at this level so the net max output is about 420hp in this application. CRANK. That's RS4 like power levels...so we should see RS4 type performance, right? We do. The quarter mile times VF produced were around 13.0@107mph. The rest of the VF cars refuse to go to the quarter mile. Why? Because the problem with performing like a 420hp car is...VF PROMISED 500HP IN THEIR MARKETING OF THE KIT! Oops.
PES $8500- basically the story here is EXACTLY like the VF kit. Same hardware, same promised 500hp, same refusal to do ANY performance testing of any kind to back up their claims. The first few owners of PES kits took their cars to the dragstrip, and depending on their modlists, they performed like a 420hp RS4 (12.7-13.0@107-110mph). All around PES sold more kits because they jumped to the market first. Unfortunately every single PES car on the forums had LOADS of problems, ranging from slipping/popping belts requiring extensive downtime and redesigns, to catastrophic engine failures due to intercooler leaks. All around PES solidified their reputation as the Audi tuner most likely to walk into a sharp stick in the dark. Here's a thread that explains a good part of this story....
JHM supercharger: under $8000 (they said 'less than the other kits for price, but it's not announced yet) - it is a centrifugal supercharger that, in the words of the company, is capable of 700hp. Of course to do this, you'd need to spend a few grand upgrading the internals of the engine with JHM forged pistons and rods. On STOCK internals, and just bolting the supercharger up to your car you should expect to see something north of 400 wheel horsepower (a.k.a. 500hp+).
They added one to a car that had one mod - gutted pre-cats in the OEM downpipes (with main cats still in place) . Stock everything else. The car was a B6 S4 with 220,000 km (not a typo) and it was an automatic. This car ran at the dragstrip on an 85 degree night in Detroit this summer. Density Altitude was about 2500 feet. Despite all of this, the car ran 12.58 @ 113mph, faster than any PES/MTM/VF car ever. Faster than even the PES or VF M90 supercharged RS4s as a matter of fact. Those RS4s with a supercharger ran 12.60 for the most part in optimal cool temperatures. The JHM car STILL beat them in terrible conditions with no supporting mods, on a 220,000km old car...with an automatic transmission no less.
Then JHM added their supercharger to JHM's in-house car over in Lathrop, California and put something like 10,000 miles on the kit. After this, they took it to the dragstrip. The owner of JHM's wife drives this car as her daily driver. Has baby seats and all
. The car has JHM headers, Fast Intentions catback, JHM intake manifold, LW rotors, LW crank pulley, LW flywheel, JHM clutch etc. When they went to the dragstrip, they did so in the worst possible conditions - 85 degree heat with plenty of humidity, and 2500 foot Density Altitude. They also did so full weight/full interior. Again, this car has frigging babyseats in it. The car ran 12.2 @ 119 mph.
For some perspective, JHM tests their parts at the dragstrip to show delta vs. stock or their competitors. That's one reason they have a huge following in the B6/7 S4 world. Their parts also work!
Finally, here's a great little eye opener. This is VF Engineering's poster child - it is a yellow B6 S4 that has had a B7 RS4 body conversion done. It has every bolt on available including lightweight breaks, flywheel, JHM clutch, JHM headers, 2.5" catback etc. It also has a VF engineering supercharger (their Eaton M90 kit). After much anticipation, JHM raced this car with their in house car in California when the VF car's owner came in for help with problems he was having. Basically both cars have the same modlists...weighed the same...with the only exception being VF supercharger vs. JHM supercharger.
Here's the result:
Here's the same car racing JHM BEFORE JHM put their supercharger on. Basically the same modlist, but JHM has their car with NO supercharger...and with a JHM tune. The VF supercharged car on the other hand has all the same mods but with VF's supercharger + SC tune (by GIAC)
They did a few runs with JHM running just all motor. Then JHM turned on their 70 whp nitrous kit. The JHM car makes 320whp all motor, and about 400 WHP on the nitrous. The VF car dyno'd 400 whp...on the same dyno, the same week as JHM dyno'd. So, the VF car should thump the JHM car in the first few races right? Nope. Supercharged S4s on the dyno produce some really inaccurate results that don't necessary reflect how the car will run in the real world. This video is the best example of that, along with the other quarter mile failures for VF and PES kits.
Last edited by sakimano; 10-25-2010 at 11:30 AM.
10-25-2010, 04:05 PM
#6
Audi Forum - Posts like a Q7
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 711
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
Creator of MTM is Roland Mayer. Roland was an Audi Design Engineer for many years during the evolution of Audi's legendary Quattro and the famous 5 Cylinder engine during the 1980's before he created his own aftermarket performance company MTM in 1990. Roland continues to expand his growing business of 20+ years by offering aftermarket products for Audi, Seat, Skoda, VW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and Bentley. Any complete supercharger kit from MTM is considered top shelf and is a bench mark for others to work towards as it includes a completely tested and balanced kit to go along with a supercharger hence the price.
MTM > Company > MTM - Motoren Technik Mayer GmbH
Review MTM's product offerings as their list is much more substantial than most tuners in North America.
MTM > Products > MTM Product Overview
Check out this link for a Canadian contact for MTM:
HORCHAUS in Montreal at Horchaus - Exclusive Canadian Distributor of MTM Products
MTM > Company > MTM - Motoren Technik Mayer GmbH
Review MTM's product offerings as their list is much more substantial than most tuners in North America.
MTM > Products > MTM Product Overview
Check out this link for a Canadian contact for MTM:
HORCHAUS in Montreal at Horchaus - Exclusive Canadian Distributor of MTM Products
Last edited by K04-S4; 10-25-2010 at 04:09 PM.
10-25-2010, 08:29 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancity
Posts: 2
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
Hey guys,
Thanks for all the input.
So really the consensus, is that most of these so called supercharger kits don't live up to the performance they are selling.
Sounds like JHM are the go to guys when it comes to trying to get some real performance gains.
Thanks for all the input.
So really the consensus, is that most of these so called supercharger kits don't live up to the performance they are selling.
Sounds like JHM are the go to guys when it comes to trying to get some real performance gains.
10-25-2010, 09:41 PM
#8
Audi Forum - Posts like a Q7
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 711
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
If I was motivated to seriously upgrade a B7 4.2L then I would use an MTM kit... but that's just me
Good Luck with your upgrades and let us know how things go for you!
Good Luck with your upgrades and let us know how things go for you!
11-01-2010, 04:34 PM
#9
Audi Forum - Posts like an S6
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oakville
Posts: 1,155
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
yeah, but you drive a 2.7T so...your 4.2 advice should be about as reliable as my 2.7T advice!
^^^In all seriousness, other than the fact that the company founder used to be an Audi guy, why would you do that? What about MTM and the 4.2 has shown that they're deserving of the business? If you have any data or performance information, the forum would love to hear it. They're a black hole data wise, as was VF engineering and PES.
They've been invited (as have their sales reps) to post on forums providing data/performance figures, but they've never accepted. I don't know why. There are plenty of potential customers.
There's only one company that has really devoted themselves to the 4.2 Audis...JHM. If you owned a 4.2 you'd get a better feel for the market. The 2.7T guys were spoiled with plenty of tuners offering an assortment of parts. The 4.2 being difficult to add power to aftermarket scared away all the major tuners for everything but tunes and catbacks. Most of the tunes and catbacks produced for the 4.2 S4 were lacking performance wise. Only over the past 18 months have people started to figure out the performance formula for these cars, but by now the majority of the tuners have dropped like flies where their 4.2 development is concerned.
Fortunately for us JHM is strangling the competitive marketplace, and as a result is putting their focus into developing great things for the S4/RS4.
that's certainly the consensus opinion on the more populated 4.2 forums like on euroaddiction.net etc.
Now let's not forget...the PES and VF kits DO add performance. They take a 3850lb AWD sedan down the quarter mile in 12.8-13.0 seconds. That would certainly require a performance gain of about 60-80hp considering our NA torque/HP curves. Of course they promised 160hp! But if you're happy at 60-80hp and happy with their pricing it's certainly an option to consider. I'd just be more inclined to grab the JHM product, gain a legit 160hp...have the upside to go to 700hp if I wanted to with a built engine and full bolt ons...and be priced less than VF and PES.
^^^In all seriousness, other than the fact that the company founder used to be an Audi guy, why would you do that? What about MTM and the 4.2 has shown that they're deserving of the business? If you have any data or performance information, the forum would love to hear it. They're a black hole data wise, as was VF engineering and PES.
They've been invited (as have their sales reps) to post on forums providing data/performance figures, but they've never accepted. I don't know why. There are plenty of potential customers.
There's only one company that has really devoted themselves to the 4.2 Audis...JHM. If you owned a 4.2 you'd get a better feel for the market. The 2.7T guys were spoiled with plenty of tuners offering an assortment of parts. The 4.2 being difficult to add power to aftermarket scared away all the major tuners for everything but tunes and catbacks. Most of the tunes and catbacks produced for the 4.2 S4 were lacking performance wise. Only over the past 18 months have people started to figure out the performance formula for these cars, but by now the majority of the tuners have dropped like flies where their 4.2 development is concerned.
Fortunately for us JHM is strangling the competitive marketplace, and as a result is putting their focus into developing great things for the S4/RS4.
Now let's not forget...the PES and VF kits DO add performance. They take a 3850lb AWD sedan down the quarter mile in 12.8-13.0 seconds. That would certainly require a performance gain of about 60-80hp considering our NA torque/HP curves. Of course they promised 160hp! But if you're happy at 60-80hp and happy with their pricing it's certainly an option to consider. I'd just be more inclined to grab the JHM product, gain a legit 160hp...have the upside to go to 700hp if I wanted to with a built engine and full bolt ons...and be priced less than VF and PES.
Last edited by sakimano; 11-01-2010 at 04:39 PM.
11-03-2010, 04:28 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 711
Re: Supercharger for B7 S4
Contact MTM or Canadian Distributor Horchaus in Montreal Horchaus - Exclusive Canadian Distributor of MTM Products for more vendor information. I believe in their products but I am not their promoter or spokesperson.
If I wanted relatively simple bolt-on 4.2 power for most reasonable cost then I would consider the long time available PES intercooled Supercharger kit and install it myself. If I wanted a serious and reliable 4.2 power package, as in a german performance kit for a german performance vehicle designed and tested by a 20 year german performance company team operated by a german Audi Engineer with ~30 years experience, I would not hesitate to buy from MTM. This is my opinion for now as I hope for future options too.
I have done business with VAST and JHM over the years and they are excellent to deal with. I was in before Jay first did up his Nogaro B5 S4 and then created his infamous short throw shifter which now dominates the market.
Last edited by K04-S4; 11-03-2010 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Typo
