Eltoro

K04-S4,

That is very good info. This is even more intriguing.
The 8.5K$ kit is very respectable on stock componants.
And you are right about going over 10lbs of boost.
It always comes down to the budget at hand.

Thanks.

J0hn_r1

No-one caught this...?

sakimano

allow me to clarify a few things here...

1.+2. the PES gains you quoted are dyno information. That's it. No real world performance testing to back up those claims. When the owners took the cars to the track, they performed like cars that had added 60-80hp (crank)...NOT 160hp. PES is full of ****. The M90 is a major fail on a high VE 4.2 V8. They copied VF Engineering...who also failed and assumed the dyno results would sell the kit. Both companies are seeing their M90 supercharger kits suffer greatly, and have basically abandoned advertising the kits.

I know a few owners first hand who bought a PES or VF kit...dyno'd 400whp (which is about 500 crank), then ran the quarter mile in 12.9 seconds @ 109mph. If you know anything about tracking these cars, those times/traps are nowhere near what they should be if the power claims were legit. They weren't. SCAM.

Here's the ultimate proof - JHM's in house B6 S4 vs. a VF engineering supercharged S4 (it's a b6 with an RS4 body conversion in yellow).

http://www.streetfire.net/video/jhm-...s4_2035390.htm

The JHM car dyno'd 317whp on 91 (which they're running here). The VF Engineering car dynod 402whp on 91 (which it is running here. This was the same dyno. The supercharged car dynos great. How about the real world?

The VF car weighed about 200lbs more than the JHM car, so JHM added a bunch of weight to their car. They did 4 or 5 runs.

The 317 whp car stayed within 1/2 a car length of the '402 whp' car...same weight...same gearing. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

run 1 - JHM car wins, but it got a tiny jump
run 2 - fair run, VF car wins by 1/2 a car length. This is nowhere near accurate for a supposedly 85 whp more powerful car
run 3 and 4 - they run a couple of more times giving the VF car the jump and a 1/4 to 1/2 car head start. It still barely puts 1 car length on the supposedly 85whp underpowered car.
run 5 - JHM turns on their 70whp nitrous kit (they dyno'd 405whp with the nitrous on)...gives VF the jump, a head start and a full honk...but the JHM nitrous car runs it down EASILY
run 6 - no leads, no jumps - just a straight run from 40mph to 120mph. JHM nitrous car WALKS the VF car by about 3 car lengths. This despite both cars having the same power on the dyno.

Bottom line? VF and PES M90 supercharged cars are dyno queens. If you want to drop $10,000 to have a pretty dyno graph, but get your *** handed to you on the road/track, be my guest.


3. MOTODYNE? THAT WAS A GIGANTIC FRAUD!!!! Please don't ever post anything by motodyne. They're a scam artist who bilked owners out of THOUSANDS of dollars for absolutely nothing. Please do some homework on Audiworld or Audizine. A search for 'MOTODYNE' in the 4.2 forums will yield some real horror stories.

4. B5 S4 weighs around 3650. B6/7 S4 weighs around 3850. Those are MT6 sedans.
The B8 S4 is the heaviest S4 of all time. The sedans with manual transmission STRUGGLE to weigh in at 4000lbs. Most are around 4050. Check any road test where the car was weighed...it's VERY heavy.

5. There is only 1 turbocharged S4 on earth. It has two Garrett turbos...it is in Detroit...and it is the JHM/VAST development car and they won't release numbers until the kit is ready for the public. A friend is going to be their first 'customer' with the kit on it, and they already have his car.

It is ungodly fast but it also needs forged rods and pistons to handle the power. The B6/7 S4 4.2 engine can handle something in the range of 450 WHP or less before the internals need to be replaced with forged bits. I base this on extensive testing by JHM. They pushed the heck out of one of their in house cars (yes they have multiple in house cars to test on that they own...unlike the scam artists who beta test on customers before they've even done any private testing).

sakimano

^^^gotcha totally. You're a B5 guy, so it's tough to be up to speed on all the bullshit from other platforms!

re: torque numbers, the yellow car was around 375 wtq and the all motor car was around 320 wtq. Also insanely disparate.


MTM got it right on the RS4 - they used i believe a Lysholm supercharger that flows like crazy. The RS4 and the S4 are HIGHLY efficient. The volumetric efficiency numbers STOCK are almost the same as the max flow capabilities of the Eaton M90 supercharger that is used on the PES and VF S4 SC kits...as well as the PES RS4 kit. Thusly, they don't really post big gains (in the street, not the sheet).

APR is putting an Eaton TVS1320 supercharger in their RS4 kit. To quote a friend in the auto industry, that will be zip codes better than the M90 and miles better than even the Eaton M112 kit put out by VF Engineering.

Anyway, if I supercharge my car it will be a JHM kit. They've got the platform figured out, and rumour has it they're working on a supercharger.

p.s. the weights you're talking about...quoting Audi isn't going to work because they use a base model Euro car with non power, cloth seats, no power anything, no sunroof, small wheels etc. It's always dramatically different to the real cars that people order, especially over here where everything is bundled. The B8 S4 weighs 4000lbs. The MT6 guys weigh around 3950 and the DSG guys weigh about 4050. Just check actual weights (hence using R&T)

Eltoro

I get what you're saying about buying an RS4 or an R8... Those cars and the S4 share the same engine, there must not be much diference between them yet, there is 420hps in the RS4. You can pick up a used S4 and work on the engine a bit.(forget NOS, I don't buy the hype.) I'm sure you can get better than RS4 power and still be under the the price of the RS4. This is the point of trying to slap 2 turbos on the S4. It only take one crazy SOB to get it done and then wait and see all the others jump on the band wagon! I'm still torn on the subject. I would love to get an S4 V8an d turbo it but. I don't look forward to the trial and error phase of perfecting the setup.

Axel

Unfortunately, you can't get the R8 or RS4 (in N.A.) in the Avant trim. I still want mine to be my daily driver. Induction is my only option even if I could afford to buy the others.

Axel

I'd prefer to go with a turbo option assuming that 1) the solution has been out for enough time that's it's been tested by enough people that are way more knowledgeable than me (and have given the thumbs up) and 2) that I have the money at that time

sakimano

you're assuming all the offerings are on the table already. They're not. Be patient. The B5 stuff sucked until about 2006-7. That was 8 years after the first '99 B5 cars drove off the lot. We're currently at 7 years after the first EURO B6 cars drove off the lot. The early stage III B5 cars were mostly weaksauce K04 cars and until good guys like VAST stepped in, and stepped up with the first GT builds, the B5 wasn't 'all that' either. There are ALL MOTOR 4.2 cars that keep up with the PJk04 APR guys etc. even to this day. (I know...APR is weaksauce) Again, just be patient.

A friend's car is at JHM getting done right now, however, and another friend is JHM's test car which has been running since we were wondering when the snow would come. I reckon to go turbos, and get a fully built/forged internals setup, you're looking at just under $20,000. You'll also be in GT B5 territory though with 500whp as your worst case scenario and K04 cars having no chance to touch you unless they bend fanblades with boost. As above, we have to be patient because the car wasn't built FI, nor was there space vacated by removing K03s, as was the case in a B5 big turbo car.

For the record, I'm not going turbo. My FI solution will be a supercharger, but it won't be a PES or VF engineering scam kit. I am waiting for JHM. I'll finish the last few smart all motor mods, then look for their SC kit.

When I do, I expect performance similar to a good K04 car... (but maybe not a great JHM/VAST fuelled/tuned car). The goal is just under 450whp, on stock internals.



As for the Axel post, he was referring to the RS4 avant.

FYI Axel, the RS4 engine is entirely different to the S4. They share very little other than cylinder count and displacement.

BUT...you're right in that a good tune, good exhaust, good downpipes will have you running right beside an RS4. Add headers and you'll be even better equipped to handle making something like 400 crank hp and 370-380 crank torque. The fastest ALL MOTOR S4 ran 12.70@112mph...which is about what a much lighter R8 will do with a good driver.

USMC0211

I have an 05 S4, manual, I had it twin turboed in texas. engine is not stock though. alot was redone so it could hold more power and the tranny is rebuilt for same reason. it has 2 70mm turbos on it and it makes about 800awhp and the tq is around 700 i believe. it's by far the fastest vehicle I have ever owned. its crazy and it pulls on everything, a buddy of mine has a TT gallardo that makes around 1000 at the crank and i can for the most part keep side by side with him. hes usually half a car length ahead. on race gas - Q16 my car will make a little over 1000hp. but this S4 is fully rebuilt to hold the power and a great deal of money and time has been put in. If anyone else does it, I think its completely worth it

USMC0211

Yeah, I am at Camp Pendleton right now doing some work and my car is home in AZ. I will take a few vids when I get home, got a new camera so they won't be crap phone vids. And I'll upload the pics at the same time.