An M3 owner talks about his S4
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Jul 6, 7:39 pm, "Mike G" <met...@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
> "eBob.com" <faken...@totallybogus.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ZAji.22$wO5.11@newsfe12.lga...
>
> > Nice report. Thanks.
>
> Do you not feel a little guilty?
> Mike.
Um... no? I'm not sure what I would feel guilty about.
In all honesty, I wrote this down mostly because, when deciding to
forego the M3 for the S4, I could find almost no neutral articles
talking about the real differences in owner experiences. All I wound
up with were posts that would tout the interminable positives of
either of the platforms, and then quickly state "the other thing,
well, it just sucks." So, I thought I might help out anyone in my
position, and just talk a little about what I miss and what I don't.
I am interested in hearing anyone else's experiences, as well.
Best,
Mark
Mark J. Cecil -- Senior UNIX Engineer and Part-time Curmudgeon
New Orleans, Louisiana
http://notrealswift.blogspot.com
"La Nouvelle-Orleans... Maintenant et pour toujours
> "eBob.com" <faken...@totallybogus.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ZAji.22$wO5.11@newsfe12.lga...
>
> > Nice report. Thanks.
>
> Do you not feel a little guilty?
> Mike.
Um... no? I'm not sure what I would feel guilty about.
In all honesty, I wrote this down mostly because, when deciding to
forego the M3 for the S4, I could find almost no neutral articles
talking about the real differences in owner experiences. All I wound
up with were posts that would tout the interminable positives of
either of the platforms, and then quickly state "the other thing,
well, it just sucks." So, I thought I might help out anyone in my
position, and just talk a little about what I miss and what I don't.
I am interested in hearing anyone else's experiences, as well.
Best,
Mark
Mark J. Cecil -- Senior UNIX Engineer and Part-time Curmudgeon
New Orleans, Louisiana
http://notrealswift.blogspot.com
"La Nouvelle-Orleans... Maintenant et pour toujours
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:08:57 -0000, mjcecil@gmail.com wrote:
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:08:57 -0000, mjcecil@gmail.com wrote:
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:08:57 -0000, mjcecil@gmail.com wrote:
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:08:57 -0000, mjcecil@gmail.com wrote:
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
>All:
>
>I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>observations.
>
>First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>
And the moral of this story is????????????????
Don't race a tortoise......................
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:01 -0400, "eBob.com" <fakename@totallybogus.com> wrote:
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:01 -0400, "eBob.com" <fakename@totallybogus.com> wrote:
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:01 -0400, "eBob.com" <fakename@totallybogus.com> wrote:
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:01 -0400, "eBob.com" <fakename@totallybogus.com> wrote:
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
Can't find the delete button?
Do we really have to have all the crap as well?
>Nice report. Thanks.
>
><mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183752537.465723.254640@o61g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...
>> All:
>>
>> I have spent significant time in M3's in recent years (120,000+ miles
>> in an E36, and 40,000+ miles in an E46), but recently I purchased a
>> 2007 Audi S4. After nearly 3,000 miles in this car, I have some
>> observations.
>>
>> First, this is NOT an S4 versus M3 "which is better" rant. It's just
>> to point out what I have noticed as differences in the two cars...
>>
>> For background, the cars have been as follows:
>>
>> 1) 1999 M3, purchased new. Ti silver with silver interior (silver
>> sport "vader" seats, manual adjust), OBC, and sunroof.
>>
>> 2) 2002 M3, Purchased 2005 (thanks, Katrina) as a certified car. 6sp
>> Carbon Black over black leather and Ti beltline trim, MkIII nav, seat
>> heaters, sunroof, BiXenons.
>>
>> 3) 2007 S4, Purchased new. 6sp Black pearl over black/silver
>> alcantara. Nav, Bose, DTM pkg, park control, BT, and the rest of the
>> kitchen sink.
>>
>> For background, about me: I'm 38, and a systems engineer by trade. I
>> like to drive fast. A lot. I do not race in any sort of formal
>> sense, though I have had more than my fair share of triple-digit
>> encounters with other vehicles on the street. I don't have all
>> weekend every weekend to take down and modify my car. And, even if I
>> did, I have little or no desire to make severe mods to cars like
>> these, anyway (with the possible exception of an exhaust or a remapped
>> ECU), as I feel that a team of German engineers spending 7 years at
>> the design table really do have more automotive knowledge than I do,
>> and thus the final compromise might actually be better than what my
>> shadetree butt can come up with.
>>
>> That may make me seem to be less of gearhead than some, and that may
>> be true, but the fact that remains is that I love my cars, and I think
>> I am in a unique position to honestly compare the vehicles as a
>> relatively normal driver.
>>
>>
>> Now, on to my observations...
>>
>> First, the non-functional stuff:
>>
>> Build quality-
>>
>> The S4, by and large appears to have an overall better build quality
>> than the either M3, at least as far as the interior goes. (The
>> exterior appointments are essentially equal across the board for these
>> cars).
>>
>> The E46 BMW had numerous interior trim pieces, most of which were
>> finished in some sort of coating which was given to peeling upon
>> extended exposure to heat ( I live in New Orleans, and the cars do
>> tend to bake in the summer ). I replaced 3 of 7 of the interior
>> beltline trim pieces, at an average cost of about $100 apeice (I
>> replaced both armrests, which are also coated in the beltline
>> material). Not a huge deal, but on a mid-50K car, it was just
>> something that shouldn't have happened. Also, the interior window
>> trim, while very attractive, was a separate piece of fabric-covered
>> rubber, and very given to delaminating from the door/window frame.
>> Once again, how good can you feel about a relatively expensive car
>> when you're driving down the street with part of the interior hanging
>> in the window?
>>
>> The E36 BMW had better trim than the E46, even though it wasn't as
>> flashy. The trim was solid all around, with no esoteric coatings to
>> peel, and the finish was a little more durable on the plastic. There
>> were far fewer pieces to the fabric trim at the headliner and pillars,
>> and those were apparently built better than their more modern
>> counterparts.
>>
>> My S4, by contrast, has carbon fiber trim that is really very durable
>> looking, and the polished resin that makes up the bulk of the trim
>> pieces appears to be very resistant to scratching. The whole setup is
>> molded-through, not a coating, so I'm not worried bout peeling or
>> nicking, etc. The pillar and window trims are integrated with the
>> headliner, and the fabric appears bonded to the rigid structure of the
>> headliner. All in all, it seems to be a more durable approach. The
>> cleanability of this setup has yet to be determined.
>>
>> Creaking armrests... From the moment I got the E46, the armrests, both
>> door and center, creaked in a very plasticky way when any pressure at
>> all was applied. This was eminently annoying, and really should have
>> been worked out before the car saw the light of day. Yes, the
>> replacement armrests creaked in exactly the same way. Now, I admit,
>> this is not part and parcel to the performance of the car, but I use
>> the armrests in some way EACH AND EVERY time I use the car. They
>> should do their work silently.
>>
>> The E36, on the other hand, had zero in terms of armrest creak. It
>> was just nice in this way.
>>
>> The S4 has rock solid armrests, but the center armrest does creak a
>> little. I plan to take the armrest apart, and apply paraffin lube to
>> the plastic joints in an attempt to quiet that down. The difference
>> with this armrest is that it will creak a little as you first lay your
>> arm on it, but it's quiet after that.
>>
>> As far as the window and feature controls, the E36 really had the best
>> of the lot. The center mounted push-only swtches were heavy-duty and
>> positive feeling, and the pushbuttons and ***** throughout the rest of
>> the cabin were equally solid feeling.
>>
>> The E46's push-pull window switches are notoriously weak, and I
>> replaced three units in the console (two driver and one passenger) in
>> the two years I owned the car. I was not happy, overall with the
>> switches and such in the E46 steering wheel, and did not appreciate
>> the move of cruise control from a stalk on the lower right of the E36
>> wheel to the wheel spoke-mounted buttons on the E46. I thought that
>> the stalk was virtually perfect for its task, and required exactly
>> zero in terms of looking at the control to use (I did spend three
>> years driving 120 mile round trips to work, so the cruise was, indeed,
>> an important feature for me).
>>
>> The S4 has its cruise on a stalk, as well, but on the left side, so
>> it's slightly harder to use. And what the hell's with putting the
>> markings on that stalk such that you can't read them from the driver's
>> position if you were to need to do such a thing? The window push-
>> pulls are much beefier in the Audi than the E46, and I expect them to
>> outlast my ownership of the car. I am not as confident in the top-row
>> buttons that make up the small number of controls in the center
>> console.
>>
>> And as for the six buttons in teh instrument cluster? Well, let's
>> just say that reaching them while driving might be a dangerous
>> exercise, and thus, they will probably neer be used.
>>
>> Seats -
>>
>> The S4 has pretty damned good seats. The recaros are forgiving, but
>> very laterally supportive. And the Alcantara is gorgeous both to the
>> touch and to the eyes. HOWEVER...
>>
>> Both the E36 and E46 had better seats, overall. The E36 Vaders were
>> very supportive with huge bolsters, and were at that time the best
>> seats I'd ever sat in. The E46 was even better. despite all the
>> electric controls, the E46 M3 seats have to be the most body-hugging,
>> comfortable, confidence inspiring factory seats in any car. At least
>> that's my personal experience. Man, I miss those seats. (AND I miss
>> the bolster-width adjustment!)
>>
>> Audio -
>>
>> People talk about how unimpressive the Bose(tm) audio setup in the A4/
>> S4 is, and maybe it's not the Levinson system. I encourage THOSE
>> people to try spending an extra grand on the Harmon/Kardon from BMW,
>> and THEN tell me how much better they feel about the Audi.
>>
>>>From a feature perspective, BMW's H/K stereo (not to mention the stock
>> one) was the single most unimpressive feature of the car. It was, to
>> be kind, worthless. MB Quart makes a ton of money selling upgrade
>> drivers to these systems, and for good reason. It REALLY pissed me
>> off when I got in my girlfriend's Accord ( V6 with the 6sp manual...
>> if it's going to be an Accord, might as well be one with some juice! )
>> only to find that its audio system was so much better as to be
>> noticeable even by my lousy ears.
>>
>> Yes, I know, the M3 is a performance car, and the focus should be
>> there. Fine. But, at this price point, it's really a LUXURY
>> performance car, and any creature comforts BMW has gone to the trouble
>> to add should reflect that.
>>
>> Misc-
>>
>> Do you know how pissed I was when I found out first hand what a
>> useless piece of work the M-mobility "System" was on the E46 M3? My
>> E36 had a full-size spare and so does the S4. BMW, what gives? Gimme
>> a damn wheel!
>>
>> Along those lines, I'll tell you this... I loved the look of the
>> staggered wheels on the M3's, but I'm really kind of looking forward
>> to a real tire rotation for the first time in 9 years
>>
>> And let's just talk exhaust note here... I know it's a little quiet
>> for all of your tastes, but I zip through my parking garage at work
>> and I roll down the windows EVERY time just to hear the car. It's
>> really truly a gorgeous sounding engine.
>>
>> Now, on to the performance...
>>
>> This is the part the Audi guys are not necessarily wanting to hear...
>> I place the overall performance of the B7 S4 on par with the E36 M3,
>> and marginally better, but not as confidence inspiring (from the
>> inside) as the E46, but the car FEELS more modern and mature than
>> either of the two at speed.
>>
>> The acceleration of the E46 was simply brutal when you wanted that
>> (Not Z06 quick, mind you, but as quick or quicker than 99% of cars out
>> there). The S4 is strong and silky smooth, but lacks the neck
>> snapping response that I really loved about that E46. The E36 was the
>> same way... Not to say there is no power - quite the opposite. Just
>> the delivery is different. In the S4 and the E36 both, it feels as if
>> at any point, in any gear, you could step into it and it would pull
>> you strongly right up to the red line. And, if you hit a downshift
>> right, they will always push you squarely into your seat.
>>
>> But the E36 and the S4 both have a rev-response delay that the E46
>> never had. I don't know if that is due to a heavy flywheel in the
>> Audi, or what, but it takes (relatively) FOREVER to spool that V8 up.
>> The E46, on the other hand, would bump its redline way before you were
>> ready, if you weren't paying attention... I mean it would spin up
>> Right... Freakin... Now.
>>
>> Of course, each of these cars is artificially limited in top speed,
>> but I don't actually care about that, since I rarely bump that
>> territory. Oh, I have definitely pegged both M3's (several times for
>> significant lengths of time) but I have yet to have the S4 above 125.
>>
>> The M3's both had better bodyroll characteristics than the S4 does,
>> and both were essentially flat in 95% of turns, whereas there is
>> limited bodyroll in the S4 in all sharper-than-sweeping turns. (the
>> roll is always there, but it's always of very limited magnitude) BUT
>> the S4 holds a line in a turn better than either of the BMWs. This is
>> probably a direct result of the Quattro system. Both the E36 and E46
>> tended to push in a turn, and I think that the S4 will, as well, when
>> pushed harder, but the front wheel pull on the S4 helps keep that in
>> check by providing that correcting force vector.
>>
>> All that said, I think that I would rather be driving the M3s on
>> smooth mountain roads. They just seem slightly more telepathic in the
>> turns than does the S4. The S4 has an overly light steering touch
>> that keeps the driver a little too out of the loop, feedback-wise.
>> Note I said "light", not "inexact." The car does *exactly* what you
>> tell it to. (I expect I will get used to it after a while... And if
>> not, maybe I'll just sand my fingertips)
>>
>> The E46, like the E36, was very comfortable as a smooth-surface car.
>> If you were on any sort of rough pavement, though, you could
>> essentially read it with your butt like braille. Both the E36 and the
>> S4 are somewhat more compliant, with the S4 being much closer to a
>> standard sedan ride. In almost any other environment, I would say
>> this puts the S4 at a disadvantage, but *I* live in New Orleans.
>> These roads are the worst in what can still be called the civilized
>> world, and I am somewhat crazy for driving any sort of tightly-sprung
>> vehicle on them. For this reason, I like the S4's ride here better
>> than the M3s.
>>
>> Now having said that, the M3's track over road irregularities with
>> disturbing aplomb. They made a lot of racket when you inadvertently
>> hit a bump or crack, but contact with the road was seemingly never
>> lost. The S4 behaves a little less predictably under these
>> conditions. There are a couple of spots of light washboard on my way
>> to work every day, and the M3's tended to get real loud and would
>> essentially shake your fillings loose over them, but the car never
>> lost its vector. The S4, in the same territory, gets a little
>> "squirrely" instead, and floats a little over the irregular surface,
>> despite being somewhat more comfortable and quieter in that situation.
>>
>> In the end, it may sound like I prefer the M3 over the S4... That's
>> simply not the case. I absolutely LOVE the S4, and I have no regrets
>> about making the change. I sometimes wish the S4 had the Camaro-
>> crushing quickness, or the incredible seating of the E46 M3, but not
>> often enough to make me want to go back. And, I LOVE THE QUATTRO!
>> (Did I mention it rains more here than in Seattle?) But, conversely,
>> I wish the M3 had the quattro system, creature comforts, and the fit
>> and finish of my S4.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention... I also happen to like the way my Audi looks a
>> good bit more than either M3.
>>
>> Will I wait and see about the E92 M3? Sure. Am I ready to switch
>> back? Not really.
>>
>
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: An M3 owner talks about his S4
<mjcecil@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183784324.512957.244980@w3g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 6, 7:39 pm, "Mike G" <met...@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
>> "eBob.com" <faken...@totallybogus.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:0ZAji.22$wO5.11@newsfe12.lga...
>>
>> > Nice report. Thanks.
>>
>> Do you not feel a little guilty?
>> Mike.
>
> Um... no? I'm not sure what I would feel guilty about.
Not you. eBob.com.
I go along with others. I think it was a balanced, well expressed owners
comparison of both cars.
Mike.