little problem?
10-11-2004, 04:42 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
little problem?
Hi,
i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed something.
The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
the first line (+/-40°C)
the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary with
the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it normal
that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how do
i check this?
kind regards
i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed something.
The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
the first line (+/-40°C)
the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary with
the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it normal
that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how do
i check this?
kind regards
10-11-2004, 05:55 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
Hi,
This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes under -30.
In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in 20min
(normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
drop.
If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should replace
the thermostat !
You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> Hi,
> i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
something.
> The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
> the first line (+/-40°C)
> the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
with
> the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
>
> Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
normal
> that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
>
> can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how
do
> i check this?
>
> kind regards
>
>
This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes under -30.
In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in 20min
(normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
drop.
If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should replace
the thermostat !
You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> Hi,
> i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
something.
> The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
> the first line (+/-40°C)
> the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
with
> the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
>
> Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
normal
> that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
>
> can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how
do
> i check this?
>
> kind regards
>
>
10-11-2004, 05:55 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
Hi,
This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes under -30.
In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in 20min
(normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
drop.
If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should replace
the thermostat !
You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> Hi,
> i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
something.
> The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
> the first line (+/-40°C)
> the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
with
> the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
>
> Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
normal
> that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
>
> can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how
do
> i check this?
>
> kind regards
>
>
This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes under -30.
In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in 20min
(normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
drop.
If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should replace
the thermostat !
You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> Hi,
> i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
something.
> The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got about
> the first line (+/-40°C)
> the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
with
> the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
>
> Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
normal
> that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
>
> can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor? how
do
> i check this?
>
> kind regards
>
>
10-11-2004, 06:14 AM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
tnx for the reply!
it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
this is hardly an extreme temp
i will check if the hose gets warm
tnx
"Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> Hi,
>
> This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
> Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
> the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
under -30.
> In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
20min
> (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> drop.
>
> If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
replace
> the thermostat !
>
> You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
> the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
> in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
>
> -Juho
>
>
>
> "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > Hi,
> > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> something.
> > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
about
> > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
> with
> > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
> >
> > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> normal
> > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> >
> > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
how
> do
> > i check this?
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> >
>
>
>
it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
this is hardly an extreme temp
i will check if the hose gets warmtnx
"Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> Hi,
>
> This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
> Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
> the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
under -30.
> In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
20min
> (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> drop.
>
> If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
replace
> the thermostat !
>
> You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
> the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
> in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
>
> -Juho
>
>
>
> "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > Hi,
> > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> something.
> > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
about
> > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
> with
> > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
> >
> > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> normal
> > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> >
> > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
how
> do
> > i check this?
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> >
>
>
>
10-11-2004, 06:14 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
tnx for the reply!
it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
this is hardly an extreme temp i will check if the hose gets warm
tnx
"Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> Hi,
>
> This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
> Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
> the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
under -30.
> In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
20min
> (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> drop.
>
> If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
replace
> the thermostat !
>
> You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
> the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
> in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
>
> -Juho
>
>
>
> "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > Hi,
> > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> something.
> > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
about
> > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
> with
> > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
> >
> > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> normal
> > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> >
> > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
how
> do
> > i check this?
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> >
>
>
>
it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
this is hardly an extreme temp
i will check if the hose gets warmtnx
"Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> Hi,
>
> This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it is?
> Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC and
> the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
under -30.
> In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
20min
> (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> drop.
>
> If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
replace
> the thermostat !
>
> You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your hands
> the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not yet
> in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
>
> -Juho
>
>
>
> "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > Hi,
> > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> something.
> > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
about
> > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running stationary
> with
> > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting higher.
> >
> > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> normal
> > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> >
> > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the engine
> > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
how
> do
> > i check this?
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> >
>
>
>
10-11-2004, 06:29 AM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
Hi,
A bit more about checking the thermostat.
The upper hose from engine to the radiator can get a little warm even the
thermostat works correctly because there is water in the hose. The water is
not running (should not run if engine is not in normal temperature) but it
leads heat from engine. So you can also check is the radiator itsef warm
from top of it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:lWtad.1534$Ww4.109899922@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> tnx for the reply!
> it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
> this is hardly an extreme temp i will check if the hose gets warm
>
> tnx
>
> "Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
> news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it
is?
> > Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC
and
> > the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
> under -30.
> > In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
> 20min
> > (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> > in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> > drop.
> >
> > If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
> replace
> > the thermostat !
> >
> > You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your
hands
> > the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not
yet
> > in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> > thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
> >
> > -Juho
> >
> >
> >
> > "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > > Hi,
> > > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> > something.
> > > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
> about
> > > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running
stationary
> > with
> > > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting
higher.
> > >
> > > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> > normal
> > > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> > >
> > > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the
engine
> > > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
> how
> > do
> > > i check this?
> > >
> > > kind regards
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
A bit more about checking the thermostat.
The upper hose from engine to the radiator can get a little warm even the
thermostat works correctly because there is water in the hose. The water is
not running (should not run if engine is not in normal temperature) but it
leads heat from engine. So you can also check is the radiator itsef warm
from top of it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:lWtad.1534$Ww4.109899922@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> tnx for the reply!
> it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
> this is hardly an extreme temp
i will check if the hose gets warm>
> tnx
>
> "Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
> news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it
is?
> > Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC
and
> > the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
> under -30.
> > In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
> 20min
> > (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> > in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> > drop.
> >
> > If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
> replace
> > the thermostat !
> >
> > You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your
hands
> > the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not
yet
> > in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> > thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
> >
> > -Juho
> >
> >
> >
> > "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > > Hi,
> > > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> > something.
> > > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
> about
> > > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running
stationary
> > with
> > > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting
higher.
> > >
> > > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> > normal
> > > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> > >
> > > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the
engine
> > > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
> how
> > do
> > > i check this?
> > >
> > > kind regards
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
10-11-2004, 06:29 AM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: little problem?
Hi,
A bit more about checking the thermostat.
The upper hose from engine to the radiator can get a little warm even the
thermostat works correctly because there is water in the hose. The water is
not running (should not run if engine is not in normal temperature) but it
leads heat from engine. So you can also check is the radiator itsef warm
from top of it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:lWtad.1534$Ww4.109899922@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> tnx for the reply!
> it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
> this is hardly an extreme temp i will check if the hose gets warm
>
> tnx
>
> "Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
> news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it
is?
> > Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC
and
> > the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
> under -30.
> > In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
> 20min
> > (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> > in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> > drop.
> >
> > If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
> replace
> > the thermostat !
> >
> > You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your
hands
> > the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not
yet
> > in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> > thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
> >
> > -Juho
> >
> >
> >
> > "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > > Hi,
> > > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> > something.
> > > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
> about
> > > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running
stationary
> > with
> > > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting
higher.
> > >
> > > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> > normal
> > > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> > >
> > > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the
engine
> > > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
> how
> > do
> > > i check this?
> > >
> > > kind regards
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
A bit more about checking the thermostat.
The upper hose from engine to the radiator can get a little warm even the
thermostat works correctly because there is water in the hose. The water is
not running (should not run if engine is not in normal temperature) but it
leads heat from engine. So you can also check is the radiator itsef warm
from top of it.
-Juho
"kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:lWtad.1534$Ww4.109899922@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> tnx for the reply!
> it's about 5°C outside (according to the board computer)
> this is hardly an extreme temp
i will check if the hose gets warm>
> tnx
>
> "Juho" <juho.pesonen@nokia.com> schreef in bericht
> news:VEtad.27389$k4.530818@news1.nokia.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > This is normal with diesel cars when weather is cold. But how cold it
is?
> > Here in Finlad in winter season the temperature is between 0 and -45oC
and
> > the extra heating (e.g. Webasto) is needed after temperature goes
> under -30.
> > In that conditions the engine heats up to normal temperature about in
> 20min
> > (normal driving) without extra heating system. When engine is idling
> > in -25decC temperature and the heating is on the engine temperature will
> > drop.
> >
> > If you have this kind of problems in higher temperatures, you should
> replace
> > the thermostat !
> >
> > You can check the condition of the thermostat by exploring whit your
hands
> > the upper hose wich goes to radiator when the egine temperature is not
yet
> > in normal range. If the hose is warm/hot near of the radiator, the
> > thermostat is leaking through and you should replace it.
> >
> > -Juho
> >
> >
> >
> > "kenny" <kenny.eykens@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:jAsad.1272$JC7.92005415@hestia.telenet-ops.be...
> > > Hi,
> > > i have a 2000 A4 TDI 110 Pk
> > > Now when the weather is getting colder here in belgium i noticed
> > something.
> > > The other day i drove about 12 minutes and the engine temp meter got
> about
> > > the first line (+/-40°C)
> > > the i had to wait for my friend so i kept the engine running
stationary
> > with
> > > the heating on. i saw that the temp dropped in stead of getting
higher.
> > >
> > > Is it normal that the engine takes so long to get on temp? and is it
> > normal
> > > that the temp even drops when running stat. with the heating on?
> > >
> > > can it be the valve that circulates the cooling fluid inside the
engine
> > > first en when on temp it goes open to circulate trhough the radiotor?
> how
> > do
> > > i check this?
> > >
> > > kind regards
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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jason cullen is a conman@rareandsigned.com
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02-12-2006 04:53 PM
I found this great little site
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