Chris Mauritz

Interious wrote:
> I recently drove my 99.5 A4 Quattro in the first northeast snow of the
> season, and must say that I was disappointed.
>
> The "forward traction" is excellent--I would not expect otherwise from
> Quattro drive, but lateral traction is the pits! I almost took out a
> few mailboxes while taking relatively gentle curves at fairly
> reasonable speeds. The rear ends tendency to break seems excessive.
> I was stunned. Heck--the whole heavy box wants to break and slide,
>
> Please tell me that this problem is do the usage of Potenza RE950 all
> weather high performance tires. My old 89 Saab 900S had only average
> all weather Michelins and didn't have nearly the tendency to break
> free and slide in turns. That FWD Saab handled snow like a manic. I'm
> assuming someones going to suggest real snow tires will fix this
> problem. The RE950s don't get stellar snow performance ratings at
> tirerack.com. They are fab in all other conditions.

The tires are your problem. You could have 10 wheel drive and it won't
make any difference if your tires don't have any traction. The most
sensible thing to do is to buy an extra set of cheap rims and get 4
decent snow tires. I've been using Dunlop M2 Winter Sport tires and I
had absolutely no trouble at all in 8-12" of snow the other day. I
passed a number of SUVs in ditches on my way to work and on the way
home. I also passed a number of rear wheel drive BMW and Benz vehicles
just left on the side of the road with angry occupants likely waiting
for a tow...two wheel drive with wide rear tires ought to just be left
inside in rain/snow. Lastly, all season tires are just that. They have
decent performance in many different conditions (some better than
others), but aren't top performers in any of them. If you insist on
using them, get used to driving much slower in the snow.

Cheers,

C

Wolfgang Pawlinetz

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:32:42 -0000, "Hairy One Kenobi"
<abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>Right, that's sorted out airliners. Now back to cars..
>
>A quick recap on Newtonian friction (it would be helpful to have a graph at
>this point - if anyone can supply a link, then please do so!)

Just for completeness: Tires don't comply with pure Newtonian
friction. In fact the rubber interlocks with the surface it's rolling
on.

I.e. the achievable negative acceleration is actually higher in this
case than compared to pure friction.

Which of course does not invalidate your points.

>Particularly since ABS disperses that wedge of snow that would otherwise
>slow you down. Mk.I ABS was even worse - it used to release the brakes
>entirely if all four wheels locked, hence the off-switch on older Audis.

Yes, but only down to a certain speed. I have in mind that for this
reason ABS switched off a something like 12 km/h. I think it still
does, though. (Hopefully)

Regards

Wolfgang
--
* Audi A6 Avant TDI *
* reply to wolfgang dot pawlinetz at chello dot at *

C.R. Krieger

davplac@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message news:<20031209095957.15860.00000367@mb-m21.aol.com>...
>
> - I used to teach
> in both schools, but health (and old age) has caused me to retire.

Huh? You *do* know that Newman's *79* and still racing (a little), don't you? =;^)
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; still doing that)

Dave LaCourse

C.R. Krieger writes:

>davplac@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message
>news:<20031209095957.15860.00000367@mb-m21.aol.com>...
>>
>> - I used to teach
>> in both schools, but health (and old age) has caused me to retire.
>
>Huh? You *do* know that Newman's *79* and still racing (a little), don't
>you? =;^)
>--
>C.R. Krieger
>(Been there; still doing that)

Yeah! Ain't old Blue Eyes sumptin else? d;o) Last race I saw him was at
Lime Rock this past summer and he came in 5th overall. Terrific guy. Terrific
driver. I first met him at the **** trough at Lime Rock about 20 years ago.
Was right there when he went into the kitty litter at Turn 1 at Road Atlanta
during the Nationals about 10 years ago. Got out of the car, faced the fans,
smiled and went on his way to lots of cheers.

Wish I could still do it, but the lungs are shot with emphysema and
interstisial lung disease. One day at the track would mean three days
recovering! d;o(
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Interious

This is all good news. Thanks.

>
>"Interious" <ddhartwick@DELETESPAMBLOCKearthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:bh8btv4qfv1ouvevbsk12mo7g8v2h7amd5@4ax.com.. .
>> I recently drove my 99.5 A4 Quattro in the first northeast snow of the
>> season, and must say that I was disappointed.
>>
>> The "forward traction" is excellent--I would not expect otherwise from
>> Quattro drive, but lateral traction is the pits! I almost took out a
>> few mailboxes while taking relatively gentle curves at fairly
>> reasonable speeds. The rear ends tendency to break seems excessive.
>> I was stunned. Heck--the whole heavy box wants to break and slide,
>>
>> Please tell me that this problem is do the usage of Potenza RE950 all
>> weather high performance tires. My old 89 Saab 900S had only average
>> all weather Michelins and didn't have nearly the tendency to break
>> free and slide in turns. That FWD Saab handled snow like a manic. I'm
>> assuming someones going to suggest real snow tires will fix this
>> problem. The RE950s don't get stellar snow performance ratings at
>> tirerack.com. They are fab in all other conditions.
>>
>> And oh yes---those stinking ABS brakes. This is my first experience
>> with them and they psychedelic. I can't tell if the system is actually
>> improving braking performance or not--in a juicy slushy situation,
>> you're virtually out of the loop, only providing primary break
>> pressure like a drone, waiting to see what magical horrors are up
>> ABS's sleeve.
>> What a bizarre sensation as that thing takes over and induces a
>> sense of no control whatsoever. That gritty unpredictable pumping
>> sensation. Can ABS be disabled? Bleech.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>First of all, ABS is better and faster than you'll ever be able to dose
>yourself. ABS also keeps the car in curves while breaking.
>Secondly, Audi awd doesn't overrule the natural forces. If you want to
>really play with it I suggest you attend one of these Audi workshops in snow
>conditions, they're really good!
>Last but not least, real winter tires are much better than all others in the
>cold, not a bit, a lot!
>
>Ronald
>

Grover

in article 20031209103751.15860.00000370@mb-m21.aol.com, Dave LaCourse at
davplac@aol.comPirate wrote on 12/9/03 7:37 AM:

> Ahhh, but there is ":doubt about that." A trained driver can outperform ABS
> *in a straight line* most of the time, using threshold braking. I've done it.


Point taken. I believe you. I should not have used the statement
"categorically improves." I can see that highly trained, and practiced,
drivers can do better - especially in gravel or some surface that has lots
of mini-skids. I'm willing to bet that that is a fraction of a percent of
drivers.

Le Mans cars don't have ABS, right?

My tone of frustration is due to being stopped for hours on mountain roads
while they haul away multiple spin outs from people thinking their 4x4 was a
license to groove.

I've nearly been hit (like the trees - but I bleed more) by guys in a side
slip or spin, hitting their brakes all the while and cursing their AWDs.

I start to loose sympathy for the Sport Ute folks who will be spending
several grand in the body shop.

Ok. Back to something positive...

Quattro is amazing. My hat is off to the guys who design this stuff.


Heading into the snow as soon as I hit "Send",

Grover

Interious

>Hi,
>
>I've got a 98 A6Q, 130K miles. Also got a UK racing licence, although
>not sure that qualifies me to offer advice
>
>Firstly, tyres ARE the most important item on your car. We have very
>little snow in the UK. I use Goodyear F1's for the dry, wet and ice,
>they are without doubt the best tyres I have ever tested. They are,
>however, USELESS in the snow, so I have a friendly tyre dealer who
>will put different tyres on when it snows.... And they really help.
Of course. I guess I was hoping that I could get away with not having
to deal with 2 sets of tires.

>Quattro can be both good and bad in snow and ice. The problem is, the
>Audi system puts 25% of the power to each wheel unless one or more are
>losing traction, meaning that if you are not accelerating, all four
>wheels are locking up together when there is no traction. Also, all
>modern cars are designd to understeer, and this can make the quattro a
>real pig to drive in snow/ice/wet unless you know what to do
Pig is the word. The primary goal of the Quattro designers obviously
was not snow and ice performance.

I was surprised to discover during the first weeks driving this car
the effect Quattro has on driving on bone-dry roads. It makes a
difference and I'm not sure I understand why. In the rain, of course,
it grips like crazy, but again in the forward direction--lateral
traction (terminology?) being heavily dependent on the tires. The
RE950s are pretty good in this respect.

One would think the primary design goal of an AWD vehicle would be
snow and ice performance. A stupid assumption, and explains a lot
about Quattro behavior.
>
>ABS is the absolute worst ever invention for snow driving. The
>problem is that snow has no grip, so the ABS doesn't actually do
>ANYTHING. In the old days, when you locked your wheels in the snow, a
>pile of snow built up in front of the wheels, and you were able to
>also push the snow out of the way and maybe get down to the road, but
>no longer. In the snow, best not to get into trouble in the first
>place, but if you do, try to drive out of trouble, using the handbrake
>(as long as you know what you are doing) can be your best ally
Some weeks ago, I made a tremendous blunder--mistaking red lights for
green and was forced to do some severe braking. I was going about 60
mph and stopped in short order. That bloody ABS system was going
crazy. This was in the dry but I'm not sure what effect ABS had on
overall stopping distance.
>
>Finally, if anyone has worked out how to disable the Audi ABS, please
>let me know. I know someone said you'd never stop as quick without
>them, but quite frankly, they are wrong. For someone that has just
>the slightest driving talent, you can pull-up quicker without them.
>The key issue is never panic-brake.
>
>Ashley
>
>
>
>On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:54:10 -0500, Interious
><ddhartwick@DELETESPAMBLOCKearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I recently drove my 99.5 A4 Quattro in the first northeast snow of the
>>season, and must say that I was disappointed.
>>
>>The "forward traction" is excellent--I would not expect otherwise from
>>Quattro drive, but lateral traction is the pits! I almost took out a
>>few mailboxes while taking relatively gentle curves at fairly
>>reasonable speeds. The rear ends tendency to break seems excessive.
>>I was stunned. Heck--the whole heavy box wants to break and slide,
>>
>>Please tell me that this problem is do the usage of Potenza RE950 all
>>weather high performance tires. My old 89 Saab 900S had only average
>>all weather Michelins and didn't have nearly the tendency to break
>>free and slide in turns. That FWD Saab handled snow like a manic. I'm
>>assuming someones going to suggest real snow tires will fix this
>>problem. The RE950s don't get stellar snow performance ratings at
>>tirerack.com. They are fab in all other conditions.
>>
>>And oh yes---those stinking ABS brakes. This is my first experience
>>with them and they psychedelic. I can't tell if the system is actually
>>improving braking performance or not--in a juicy slushy situation,
>>you're virtually out of the loop, only providing primary break
>>pressure like a drone, waiting to see what magical horrors are up
>>ABS's sleeve.
>>What a bizarre sensation as that thing takes over and induces a
>>sense of no control whatsoever. That gritty unpredictable pumping
>>sensation. Can ABS be disabled? Bleech.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>
>
>>************************************************ *****
>>Ashley Shepherd
>>email to ashley.shepherd_minusthespam_@virgin.net
>>************************************************ *****

Interious

On 09 Dec 2003 14:59:57 GMT, davplac@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse)
wrote:

>ddhartwick writes:
>
>>I recently drove my 99.5 A4 Quattro in the first northeast snow of the
>>season, and must say that I was disappointed
>
>There is no such thing as an all season tire unless you live in Florida,
>Southern Cal, etc. Buy a good set of snows for your A4 and you will have no
>problems. You may have the "I-have-all-wheel-drive" syndrome which makes you
>over confident. Check out the cars that are in the ditch or median on an
>interstate during a snow storm. Many (most?) are 4x4 or all wheel drive
>vehicles. Quattro doesn't compensate for poor driving habits. However, it is
>very "forgiving" and in the hands of a good driver will out-perform just about
>any other passenger car in adverse conditions.
Regarding over-confidence. Actually I purposely started out with great
care, but I think my brain is still programmed to drive old Saabs in
the snow. I didn't crash, but it was eye-opening.

>
>ABS? Best thing since ! ABS does not mean you can stop quicker. In fact,
>in deep snow or gravel roads, you get your best braking without abs. I had an
>opportunity to test a car with/without ABS. With ABS, it stopped at 100 feet
>from 50 mph. Without abs, I (and several other drivers) stopped the car in
>less than 100 feet using threshold braking. We then took the car to a dirt
>road and performed the same test. With the abs OFF, we stopped in 120 feet.
>With abs ON, it took an amazing 180 feet to stop. It was a very eye-opening
>experiment.
It is incomprehensible that ABS actually reduces accidents. Why does
it survive?
>
>Audi used to have an on/off switch with their abs, but I can see where such an
>arrangement would bring forth a plethora of law suits. ABS allows you to
>*maintain* maximum braking while still being able to steer. In the "old days"
>folks would jump on their brakes, lock up the fronts, and become an unsteerable
>object. ABS does away with lock-up. However, poor driving habits still abound
>with drivers jumping on their brakes, NOT steering, and still hitting the car
>in front or whatever.
Fabulous.
>So, bottom line? Buy four steel wheels ($50/wheel), and mount some good snows
>(Blizzacks?). I have been to Audi, Corvette, and BMW factory driving schools
>(i.e. Audi Hands On) and cannot recomment too highly the knowledge/skill
>attained from these courses. Next best thing would be a Sandy Stevens school
>(northeast)
>http://www.mv.com/ipusers/sadt/ or a Bud Stanley school (Florida)
>http://www.autocontrolgsd.com/
>
>These schools are inexpensive and concentrate on ABS braking and vehicle
>handling. And if you mention my name, you may get a discount - I used to teach
>in both schools, but health (and old age) has caused me to retire.
>
>Dave
>'03 RS-6 Avus and Ebony
>http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>
>
>
>

Dave LaCourse

ddhartwick writes:

>It is incomprehensible that ABS actually reduces accidents. Why does
>it survive?

You've got to be kidding! ABS allows all of us to brake at maximum efficiency
and steer out of possible trouble, *without a whole bunch of track-side
training*. It took me many times and quite a few flat spots on tires to learn
threshold braking (applying the brakes with maximum efficiency without steering
lock-up. Hell, now my 16 year old grand daughter can do it right out of the
blocks! ABS "threshold brakes" for you. It is a no-brainer. Jump on the
brakes and steer. You no longer have to worry about becoming a sled (front
wheels locked).
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Gene

No drive or braking system is better than the tires that put it on the
road!
I believe the tires on the A4s of that vintage are Eagle RS-A's. I would
like to get
a set of those for my next set of summer tires on my '95 90Q but I wouldn't
want them
for the winter. The tread pattern on them is way too tight to get a bite on
the snow,
they will simply spin on top like a slick. Also, the tire compound is much
harder in
the cold, adding to the previously mentioned "slick" effect.

When I got my 90Q used, it had balding Eagle GT's on it. I was forced to
drive it in the
snow with them before I got snows. They were positively frightening on the
snow, although
it was a lot of fun playing with oversteer and such at low speeds and
torques!...until there was
any reason to stop or slow down.

Bottom line- if you want nearly unfettered mobility in the snow with the
Audi, get a set of soft
snow tires with a nice, open tread pattern on a set of steel wheels just for
the winter. Quite litterally,
the only thing that stops the quattro so equipped is smooth ice or a deep
snow drift. It tends to
stop when the wheels aren't on the ground anymore.

The "Tire Rack" sells wheel and snow tire sets already mounted and
balanced and sized for the car
for $400-$600. This also gets your nice alloy wheels out of the salt and
sand that can eventually start
to eat at the relatively chemicaly active magnesium alloys.


Gene
"Interious" <ddhartwick@DELETESPAMBLOCKearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bh8btv4qfv1ouvevbsk12mo7g8v2h7amd5@4ax.com...
> I recently drove my 99.5 A4 Quattro in the first northeast snow of the
> season, and must say that I was disappointed.
>
> The "forward traction" is excellent--I would not expect otherwise from
> Quattro drive, but lateral traction is the pits! I almost took out a
> few mailboxes while taking relatively gentle curves at fairly
> reasonable speeds. The rear ends tendency to break seems excessive.
> I was stunned. Heck--the whole heavy box wants to break and slide,
>
> Please tell me that this problem is do the usage of Potenza RE950 all
> weather high performance tires. My old 89 Saab 900S had only average
> all weather Michelins and didn't have nearly the tendency to break
> free and slide in turns. That FWD Saab handled snow like a manic. I'm
> assuming someones going to suggest real snow tires will fix this
> problem. The RE950s don't get stellar snow performance ratings at
> tirerack.com. They are fab in all other conditions.
>
> And oh yes---those stinking ABS brakes. This is my first experience
> with them and they psychedelic. I can't tell if the system is actually
> improving braking performance or not--in a juicy slushy situation,
> you're virtually out of the loop, only providing primary break
> pressure like a drone, waiting to see what magical horrors are up
> ABS's sleeve.
> What a bizarre sensation as that thing takes over and induces a
> sense of no control whatsoever. That gritty unpredictable pumping
> sensation. Can ABS be disabled? Bleech.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>