Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
There are about a dozen streetable, 4-banger civics that have turbo or
supercharger kits and nitrous in town-- and I know a couple guys that run
theirs on tracks in the 10s that drive them daily.
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040211214808.25768.00001587@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >As to the question about Porsche's or Corvette's being FWD: I'd like to
see
> >one of them pull up next to a souped-up riced-out Civic that can pull
> >quarters in the 10-second-range to see what opinon they have of FWD
vehicles
>
> You had me agreeing with up to this statement. You find me a 10 second
Honda
> Civic that isn't a tub with a civic style body on it and a single seat
inside,
> the we can have this discussion. In fact you find me a streetable Civic
that
> runs 10s and I'll show you a streetable Porsche that runs 8s.
supercharger kits and nitrous in town-- and I know a couple guys that run
theirs on tracks in the 10s that drive them daily.
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040211214808.25768.00001587@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >As to the question about Porsche's or Corvette's being FWD: I'd like to
see
> >one of them pull up next to a souped-up riced-out Civic that can pull
> >quarters in the 10-second-range to see what opinon they have of FWD
vehicles
>
> You had me agreeing with up to this statement. You find me a 10 second
Honda
> Civic that isn't a tub with a civic style body on it and a single seat
inside,
> the we can have this discussion. In fact you find me a streetable Civic
that
> runs 10s and I'll show you a streetable Porsche that runs 8s.
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
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Jay Jones wrote:
> Try to sell RWD cars in Canada and the northern tier of the U.S. and
> see what you get... SUVs are popular because of a fad-- they're
> perceived as safer because they are larger and heavier, but this
> doesn't necessarily equal safety-- especially considering their poor
> performance and handling characteristics...
The disadvantages of SUV's in the snow are, as you have mentioned, lots of
weight that is distributed poorly combined with suspensions that should be
illegal. In fact, perhaps the *only* thing they have going for them -- or
should I say "keeping them going" -- in the winter months is that they are
RWD. (Or, optionally, 4WD, though I'm betting most SUV owners don't bother
engaging that system until *after* they're in the ditch.) Just try to
imagine driving on snow-covered roads in a FWD behemoth SUV!!!
I happen to live in the area about which you speak. Specifically, I live
near the eastern shore of Lake Michigan in the very tip of Michigan's Lower
Peninsula. Because of our proximity of the Lake, we don't get quite as
cold as the states to the west of us (like Minnesota and the Dakotas). But
we do get *lots* of snow. Something the weather guys call "lake effect."
And my FWD Oldsmobile is the worst of all the cars I own when driven in the
snow(*). It's a great car in the summer -- lots of performance and the ride
is just the right compromise between handling and comfort. But my Audi has
been out of commission so far this whole winter and I've been stuck driving
the Olds. And I hate it. So much so, in fact, that I'm trying to sell my
Caddy (which I love) so that I can afford to replace the Oldsmobile and Audi
with one car that I can use all year.
And while the list of cars that I'm considering are all AWD, that is only
because I can't afford any of the RWD cars that I like.
When I write that FWD is the worst layout for driving in the snow, I do so
after having driven all three layouts in the snow. And FWD is the worst.
At least, for me it's the worst. The claim that FWD is superior for
*incompetent* drivers doesn't really impress me all that much. In fact, the
idea that so many of the drivers on the road are as incompetent as this
argument suggests scares the hell out of me. The safest drive layout for
these people is the one that's used on the bus.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
(*) I don't drive the Caddy in the winter, but not because of it's handling.
I just don't want Michigan's salty roads -- or an ineptly-driven vehicle --
to destroy it. But I have messed around with it on gravel roads in the
summer, and it actually does pretty well, for a 3-ton, 21 foot-long car that
lacks a LSD and whose suspension has roughly the handling characteristics of
a 40-foot yacht. But please don't tell my wife about my adventurous
escapades. Or my classic car insurance company.
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Jay Jones wrote:
> Try to sell RWD cars in Canada and the northern tier of the U.S. and
> see what you get... SUVs are popular because of a fad-- they're
> perceived as safer because they are larger and heavier, but this
> doesn't necessarily equal safety-- especially considering their poor
> performance and handling characteristics...
The disadvantages of SUV's in the snow are, as you have mentioned, lots of
weight that is distributed poorly combined with suspensions that should be
illegal. In fact, perhaps the *only* thing they have going for them -- or
should I say "keeping them going" -- in the winter months is that they are
RWD. (Or, optionally, 4WD, though I'm betting most SUV owners don't bother
engaging that system until *after* they're in the ditch.) Just try to
imagine driving on snow-covered roads in a FWD behemoth SUV!!!
I happen to live in the area about which you speak. Specifically, I live
near the eastern shore of Lake Michigan in the very tip of Michigan's Lower
Peninsula. Because of our proximity of the Lake, we don't get quite as
cold as the states to the west of us (like Minnesota and the Dakotas). But
we do get *lots* of snow. Something the weather guys call "lake effect."
And my FWD Oldsmobile is the worst of all the cars I own when driven in the
snow(*). It's a great car in the summer -- lots of performance and the ride
is just the right compromise between handling and comfort. But my Audi has
been out of commission so far this whole winter and I've been stuck driving
the Olds. And I hate it. So much so, in fact, that I'm trying to sell my
Caddy (which I love) so that I can afford to replace the Oldsmobile and Audi
with one car that I can use all year.
And while the list of cars that I'm considering are all AWD, that is only
because I can't afford any of the RWD cars that I like.
When I write that FWD is the worst layout for driving in the snow, I do so
after having driven all three layouts in the snow. And FWD is the worst.
At least, for me it's the worst. The claim that FWD is superior for
*incompetent* drivers doesn't really impress me all that much. In fact, the
idea that so many of the drivers on the road are as incompetent as this
argument suggests scares the hell out of me. The safest drive layout for
these people is the one that's used on the bus.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
(*) I don't drive the Caddy in the winter, but not because of it's handling.
I just don't want Michigan's salty roads -- or an ineptly-driven vehicle --
to destroy it. But I have messed around with it on gravel roads in the
summer, and it actually does pretty well, for a 3-ton, 21 foot-long car that
lacks a LSD and whose suspension has roughly the handling characteristics of
a 40-foot yacht. But please don't tell my wife about my adventurous
escapades. Or my classic car insurance company.
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#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
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Mike Smith wrote:
> Steve Grauman wrote:
>
>>> so all the people who buy SUVs and trucks are stupid
>>
>>
>> Trucks and SUVs are usually equipped with some form of AWD/4WD to
>> help cope with ice/snow/rain/etc...conditions.
>>
>>
>>> last time I check
>>> Germany gets snow and ice and there two biggest companies for
>>> making cars only make RWD
>>
>>
>> Actually MB and BMW both make cars with AWD. The 3-series is
>> avaliable in Xi trim (AWD equipped), the C-Class is avaliable with
>> 4Matic AWD, as is the E Class and S Class. Audi sells more cars
>> equipped with Quattro than with FronTrac, Porsche makes the C4 and
>> the Cayenne SUV.
>
> And in the case of Porsche, most of their cars are rear-engined; i.e.
> the engine is over the drive wheels, as with FWD cars.
Let's go through the Porsche line-up:
356: mid-engine, rear drive
911/930/968: rear-engine, rear or AWD
912/914: mid-engine, rear drive
924: front-engine, rear drive
928: front-engine, rear drive
944: front-engine, rear drive
Boxter: mid-engine, rear drive
Cayenne - front-engine AWD
Carerra GT: mid-engine rear-drive
Looks like the model lines are pretty evenly split between front, mid, and
rear for engine placement. And since mid-engine layouts still put the
engine closer to the rear axle than the front, I'll give you those, too.
But not a single one of them is FWD. Not even those with the engine over
the front wheels. Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
and 928.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
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Mike Smith wrote:
> Steve Grauman wrote:
>
>>> so all the people who buy SUVs and trucks are stupid
>>
>>
>> Trucks and SUVs are usually equipped with some form of AWD/4WD to
>> help cope with ice/snow/rain/etc...conditions.
>>
>>
>>> last time I check
>>> Germany gets snow and ice and there two biggest companies for
>>> making cars only make RWD
>>
>>
>> Actually MB and BMW both make cars with AWD. The 3-series is
>> avaliable in Xi trim (AWD equipped), the C-Class is avaliable with
>> 4Matic AWD, as is the E Class and S Class. Audi sells more cars
>> equipped with Quattro than with FronTrac, Porsche makes the C4 and
>> the Cayenne SUV.
>
> And in the case of Porsche, most of their cars are rear-engined; i.e.
> the engine is over the drive wheels, as with FWD cars.
Let's go through the Porsche line-up:
356: mid-engine, rear drive
911/930/968: rear-engine, rear or AWD
912/914: mid-engine, rear drive
924: front-engine, rear drive
928: front-engine, rear drive
944: front-engine, rear drive
Boxter: mid-engine, rear drive
Cayenne - front-engine AWD
Carerra GT: mid-engine rear-drive
Looks like the model lines are pretty evenly split between front, mid, and
rear for engine placement. And since mid-engine layouts still put the
engine closer to the rear axle than the front, I'll give you those, too.
But not a single one of them is FWD. Not even those with the engine over
the front wheels. Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
and 928.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
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#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
Greg Reed wrote:
> the front wheels. Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
> the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
> and 928.
Indeed, I don't think they've ever heard of snow either. Or why do they
make cars that suck in the winter?-)
- Yak
> the front wheels. Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
> the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
> and 928.
Indeed, I don't think they've ever heard of snow either. Or why do they
make cars that suck in the winter?-)
- Yak
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
"> There are about a dozen streetable, 4-banger civics that have turbo or
> supercharger kits and nitrous in town-- and I know a couple guys that run
> theirs on tracks in the 10s that drive them daily.
>
A modest FWD Peugeot 206 GTI with only 180 HP will beat just about ANY
Porsche on a road that's winding enough with sharp bends and no long
stretches. We're talking HANDLING, not power, remember?
JP Roberts
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
you are the only one that seems to have that opinon-- as evident by car
sales statistics in your region...
"Greg Reed" <inet_user@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402b91c4$1@post.newsfeed.com...
> *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>
> Jay Jones wrote:
> > Try to sell RWD cars in Canada and the northern tier of the U.S. and
> > see what you get... SUVs are popular because of a fad-- they're
> > perceived as safer because they are larger and heavier, but this
> > doesn't necessarily equal safety-- especially considering their poor
> > performance and handling characteristics...
>
>
> The disadvantages of SUV's in the snow are, as you have mentioned, lots of
> weight that is distributed poorly combined with suspensions that should be
> illegal. In fact, perhaps the *only* thing they have going for them --
or
> should I say "keeping them going" -- in the winter months is that they are
> RWD. (Or, optionally, 4WD, though I'm betting most SUV owners don't
bother
> engaging that system until *after* they're in the ditch.) Just try to
> imagine driving on snow-covered roads in a FWD behemoth SUV!!!
>
> I happen to live in the area about which you speak. Specifically, I live
> near the eastern shore of Lake Michigan in the very tip of Michigan's
Lower
> Peninsula. Because of our proximity of the Lake, we don't get quite as
> cold as the states to the west of us (like Minnesota and the Dakotas).
But
> we do get *lots* of snow. Something the weather guys call "lake effect."
> And my FWD Oldsmobile is the worst of all the cars I own when driven in
the
> snow(*). It's a great car in the summer -- lots of performance and the
ride
> is just the right compromise between handling and comfort. But my Audi
has
> been out of commission so far this whole winter and I've been stuck
driving
> the Olds. And I hate it. So much so, in fact, that I'm trying to sell my
> Caddy (which I love) so that I can afford to replace the Oldsmobile and
Audi
> with one car that I can use all year.
>
> And while the list of cars that I'm considering are all AWD, that is only
> because I can't afford any of the RWD cars that I like.
>
> When I write that FWD is the worst layout for driving in the snow, I do so
> after having driven all three layouts in the snow. And FWD is the worst.
> At least, for me it's the worst. The claim that FWD is superior for
> *incompetent* drivers doesn't really impress me all that much. In fact,
the
> idea that so many of the drivers on the road are as incompetent as this
> argument suggests scares the hell out of me. The safest drive layout for
> these people is the one that's used on the bus.
>
> - Greg Reed
>
> --
> 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
> (FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
> 1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
> 2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
> 2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
>
> (*) I don't drive the Caddy in the winter, but not because of it's
handling.
> I just don't want Michigan's salty roads -- or an ineptly-driven
vehicle --
> to destroy it. But I have messed around with it on gravel roads in the
> summer, and it actually does pretty well, for a 3-ton, 21 foot-long car
that
> lacks a LSD and whose suspension has roughly the handling characteristics
of
> a 40-foot yacht. But please don't tell my wife about my adventurous
> escapades. Or my classic car insurance company.
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----
>
sales statistics in your region...
"Greg Reed" <inet_user@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402b91c4$1@post.newsfeed.com...
> *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>
> Jay Jones wrote:
> > Try to sell RWD cars in Canada and the northern tier of the U.S. and
> > see what you get... SUVs are popular because of a fad-- they're
> > perceived as safer because they are larger and heavier, but this
> > doesn't necessarily equal safety-- especially considering their poor
> > performance and handling characteristics...
>
>
> The disadvantages of SUV's in the snow are, as you have mentioned, lots of
> weight that is distributed poorly combined with suspensions that should be
> illegal. In fact, perhaps the *only* thing they have going for them --
or
> should I say "keeping them going" -- in the winter months is that they are
> RWD. (Or, optionally, 4WD, though I'm betting most SUV owners don't
bother
> engaging that system until *after* they're in the ditch.) Just try to
> imagine driving on snow-covered roads in a FWD behemoth SUV!!!
>
> I happen to live in the area about which you speak. Specifically, I live
> near the eastern shore of Lake Michigan in the very tip of Michigan's
Lower
> Peninsula. Because of our proximity of the Lake, we don't get quite as
> cold as the states to the west of us (like Minnesota and the Dakotas).
But
> we do get *lots* of snow. Something the weather guys call "lake effect."
> And my FWD Oldsmobile is the worst of all the cars I own when driven in
the
> snow(*). It's a great car in the summer -- lots of performance and the
ride
> is just the right compromise between handling and comfort. But my Audi
has
> been out of commission so far this whole winter and I've been stuck
driving
> the Olds. And I hate it. So much so, in fact, that I'm trying to sell my
> Caddy (which I love) so that I can afford to replace the Oldsmobile and
Audi
> with one car that I can use all year.
>
> And while the list of cars that I'm considering are all AWD, that is only
> because I can't afford any of the RWD cars that I like.
>
> When I write that FWD is the worst layout for driving in the snow, I do so
> after having driven all three layouts in the snow. And FWD is the worst.
> At least, for me it's the worst. The claim that FWD is superior for
> *incompetent* drivers doesn't really impress me all that much. In fact,
the
> idea that so many of the drivers on the road are as incompetent as this
> argument suggests scares the hell out of me. The safest drive layout for
> these people is the one that's used on the bus.
>
> - Greg Reed
>
> --
> 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
> (FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
> 1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
> 2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
> 2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
>
> (*) I don't drive the Caddy in the winter, but not because of it's
handling.
> I just don't want Michigan's salty roads -- or an ineptly-driven
vehicle --
> to destroy it. But I have messed around with it on gravel roads in the
> summer, and it actually does pretty well, for a 3-ton, 21 foot-long car
that
> lacks a LSD and whose suspension has roughly the handling characteristics
of
> a 40-foot yacht. But please don't tell my wife about my adventurous
> escapades. Or my classic car insurance company.
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----
>
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
>Let's go through the Porsche line-up:
Sure.
>356: mid-engine, rear drive
Wrong already. The 356 was rear engined and originally built on the same pan as
the Bug.
>911/930/968: rear-engine, rear or AWD
The Type 911 hasn't be made since the 1960s, it's irrelevant. The Type 930 died
in the 80s, same issue there. The 968 stopped being made in 1995 and it was
front engined, not rear. You're not off to a good start.
>912/914: mid-engine, rear drive
Sorry, wrong again. The 912 and 912E were both rear engined, built on the 911
platform but with 4-cylinder engines (the original 912 used leftover 356
mills). The 914 and 914/6 were mid-engined but have not been produced in 3
decades. Sorry.
>924: front-engine, rear drive
Out of production since the 1980s.
>928: front-engine, rear drive
Out of production since 1995.
>944: front-engine, rear drive
Out of produtcion in North America since 1989, gone from Europe since 1993.
>Boxter: mid-engine, rear drive
That's "Boxster" with an "S" in it. But this is otherwise correct.
>Cayenne - front-engine AWD
AWD on all three versions. =)
>Carerra GT: mid-engine rear-drive
Irellevant. The Carrera GT was derived from a still-born GT1 project bound for
LeMans. GT1 regulations don't allow for AWD. But you'll ntoce that every Turbo
built since the 964 has been standard with AWD, and there was an AWD option on
964 Turbos.
>Looks like the model lines are pretty evenly split between front, mid, and
>rear for engine placement.
Not really, their rear-engined for the most part with a few mid and front
engined cars thrown in. You were wrong about a few of those models.
>And since mid-engine layouts still put the
>engine closer to the rear axle than the front, I'll give you those, too.
>But not a single one of them is FWD.
Are you seriously that dense? the rear engined layout of the Carrera gives the
same traction benefits that *every* front engine, FWD car gets. It's the *same*
thing in reverse!!
>Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
>the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
>and 928.
No one is claiming performance advantages. What I'm claiming is that FWD is
less exepensive to build and SUPERIOR IN BAD WEATHER.
Sure.
>356: mid-engine, rear drive
Wrong already. The 356 was rear engined and originally built on the same pan as
the Bug.
>911/930/968: rear-engine, rear or AWD
The Type 911 hasn't be made since the 1960s, it's irrelevant. The Type 930 died
in the 80s, same issue there. The 968 stopped being made in 1995 and it was
front engined, not rear. You're not off to a good start.
>912/914: mid-engine, rear drive
Sorry, wrong again. The 912 and 912E were both rear engined, built on the 911
platform but with 4-cylinder engines (the original 912 used leftover 356
mills). The 914 and 914/6 were mid-engined but have not been produced in 3
decades. Sorry.
>924: front-engine, rear drive
Out of production since the 1980s.
>928: front-engine, rear drive
Out of production since 1995.
>944: front-engine, rear drive
Out of produtcion in North America since 1989, gone from Europe since 1993.
>Boxter: mid-engine, rear drive
That's "Boxster" with an "S" in it. But this is otherwise correct.
>Cayenne - front-engine AWD
AWD on all three versions. =)
>Carerra GT: mid-engine rear-drive
Irellevant. The Carrera GT was derived from a still-born GT1 project bound for
LeMans. GT1 regulations don't allow for AWD. But you'll ntoce that every Turbo
built since the 964 has been standard with AWD, and there was an AWD option on
964 Turbos.
>Looks like the model lines are pretty evenly split between front, mid, and
>rear for engine placement.
Not really, their rear-engined for the most part with a few mid and front
engined cars thrown in. You were wrong about a few of those models.
>And since mid-engine layouts still put the
>engine closer to the rear axle than the front, I'll give you those, too.
>But not a single one of them is FWD.
Are you seriously that dense? the rear engined layout of the Carrera gives the
same traction benefits that *every* front engine, FWD car gets. It's the *same*
thing in reverse!!
>Hmph. Perhaps Porsche engineers just weren't aware of
>the performance advantages of FWD when they were building their 924, 944,
>and 928.
No one is claiming performance advantages. What I'm claiming is that FWD is
less exepensive to build and SUPERIOR IN BAD WEATHER.
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
>There are about a dozen streetable, 4-banger civics that have turbo or
>supercharger kits and nitrous in town
I've outrun 2 Civics running Jackson Racing superchargers in my bone-stock VW
GTi. Let's see some time slips.
>supercharger kits and nitrous in town
I've outrun 2 Civics running Jackson Racing superchargers in my bone-stock VW
GTi. Let's see some time slips.
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
>A modest FWD Peugeot 206 GTI with only 180 HP will beat just about ANY
>Porsche on a road that's winding enough with sharp bends and no long
>stretches.
My god, what are you smoking? If anything Peugot is building could beat a
Boxster around any road it would be a miracle. Either that, or the result of
the Porsche driver having a stroke while racing.
>Porsche on a road that's winding enough with sharp bends and no long
>stretches.
My god, what are you smoking? If anything Peugot is building could beat a
Boxster around any road it would be a miracle. Either that, or the result of
the Porsche driver having a stroke while racing.
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320
Thank you!!
Peugot is french for and Renault is french for crap!! The french can't
make anything worth a damn...
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040212220226.25856.00001294@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >A modest FWD Peugeot 206 GTI with only 180 HP will beat just about ANY
> >Porsche on a road that's winding enough with sharp bends and no long
> >stretches.
>
> My god, what are you smoking? If anything Peugot is building could beat a
> Boxster around any road it would be a miracle. Either that, or the result
of
> the Porsche driver having a stroke while racing.
Peugot is french for and Renault is french for crap!! The french can't
make anything worth a damn...
"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040212220226.25856.00001294@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >A modest FWD Peugeot 206 GTI with only 180 HP will beat just about ANY
> >Porsche on a road that's winding enough with sharp bends and no long
> >stretches.
>
> My god, what are you smoking? If anything Peugot is building could beat a
> Boxster around any road it would be a miracle. Either that, or the result
of
> the Porsche driver having a stroke while racing.