Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
In message <Bucjh.17566$KT2.10053@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>
"Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> be chipped up to around 100bhp
However, the 1.4 is significantly heavier than the 1.2 - a distinct
disadvantage for an aero application.
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')
"Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> be chipped up to around 100bhp
However, the 1.4 is significantly heavier than the 1.2 - a distinct
disadvantage for an aero application.
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>
>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>
>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>
>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>
>Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>without the instrument cluster from the same car. So really to use it in an
>aero application it would need a custom ECU
>
>If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>be chipped up to around 100bhp
>
Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
(ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
otherwise.
Diesel engines are actually easier to control than a gas engine--you
don't worry about ignition timing, only fuel delivery and timing. You
can even make it simpler by not worrying about fuel econonmy and just
shooting in fuel as needed without worry as to whether it is the best
amount or not. THis would result in some 'black smoke' from unburned
fuel that would result from over fueling (low RPMs, high throttle
settings for example) but that may be a minor problem.
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
PeterD wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
PeterD wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
PeterD wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
PeterD wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
>>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
>>>
>>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
>>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
>>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
>>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
>>>
>>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
>>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
>>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
>>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
>>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
>>>
>>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
>> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
>> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
>> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
>> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
>> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
limp-home, for example.
>>So really to use it in an
>> aero application it would need a custom ECU
>>
>> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
>> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
>> be chipped up to around 100bhp
>>
But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
much heavier.
>
> Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
>
> The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> otherwise.
>
I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Audi A2 / VW Lupo 3 cyl. 1.2 Turbo Diesel
Chris Bartram wrote:
> PeterD wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:06:57 GMT, "Dave" <dave@nobody.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Are you sure that using an engine that isn't sold in the US is a good
> >>> idea? Getting parts and significant support may be a problem.
> >>>
> >>> You may want to check reliability of the engine components, and what
> >>> the ECM controls. In some vehicles the ECM does both the engine and
> >>> the transmission (if it is an automatic), and that could be an
> >>> issue--you'd have to get a manual transmission engine/components.
> >>>
> >>> Were this me, I'd want the entire car, so I can take all the little
> >>> bits and pieces (nothing like needing that unique valve that mounts on
> >>> hte firewall and costs a billion dollars...) as they are needed. Not
> >>> sure what your budget is but it may be possible to import one as
> >>> parts? (May be, but I"m not sure...)
> >>>
> >>> Your project does sound interesting, however. <g>
> >> Given that the 1.2 Lupo/A2 were 3L cars and fairly specialist I would pretty
> >> much guarantee that the ECU controls more than the engine. IIRC, they had
> >> fairly clever automatic gearboxes that allowed them to achieve good mpg
> >> figures. Thinking further, I believe you can't run one of these engines
> >> without the instrument cluster from the same car.
> Correct. The engine ECU is coded to the immobilizer in the cluster. It
> can be disabled, I believe, but that's a specialist task. Really you'd
> want to find a crashed car with the 1.2 TDI, take all the bits you need,
> and get rid of the rest. There would be all sorts of stuff to sort out,
> like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake switch to prevent
> limp-home, for example.
>
> >>So really to use it in an
> >> aero application it would need a custom ECU
> >>
> >> If the OP is intent on getting a small diesel then perhaps the 1.4 3
> >> cylinder engine would be a better option as it is still economical but can
> >> be chipped up to around 100bhp
> >>
> But it's a cast iron block rather than alloy, so as someone said, it's
> much heavier.
> >
> > Yep, that was what I was thinking... Because it is such an unusual
> > engine setup finding stuff for it may be next to impossible. Building
> > a custom ECM (ECU, or whatever you want to call it <g>) is quite
> > possible, but not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to
> > have a commercial customer come to me for something like that (I do a
> > lot of custom stuff of a similar nature) I'd probably tell them they
> > are looking at 6 months at least, and a six figure (US$) + price tag.
> >
> > The real answer might be to see if the engine management system
> > (ECM/ECU) from another three cylinder diesel that is less integrated
> > might be grafted onto the engine of choice. Say, take the one used on
> > the 1.4 and stick it on the 1.2. That would require some (perhaps
> > minor) retuning of fuel delivery rates, but may work just fine
> > otherwise.
> >
> I'll bet a lot of the system is the same with different software, so
> taking the system from a A2/Polo/Fabia 1.4TDi would be even harder.
>
> It's a very interesting idea, but not sure it's the easiest route to
> take. Here's a thought: how about the industrial engine range? They sold
> the 1.9 TDI with the VE injector pump (and at one point you could get
> some *very* useful literature on it), so maybe they do the 1.2?
I looked into the industrial engine route on the VW and the only one I
could find is the 1.9 which is too heavy.
Could you explain "the like fooling the ECU it has a clutch and brake
switch to prevent
limp-home, for example."
Thanks,
Bill