Gene Buckwalter

Thanks, Steve. Like I said, I'll take a very close look at this when I
go after an oil leak in the next few weeks. The sites you listed look very
informative as well. Thanks again.

I should have done some more of this research before I pulled the heads
and replaced valve guides in October. I could have killed this bird with
that stone too.

Gene

"Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
news:03Cyd.28734$GK5.1490881@news20.bellglobal.com ...
> Gene,
> If you have a 97c thermostat installed, the temperature of the coolant
> exiting through the thermostat should be 97c or above. It sounds like the
> thermostat is letting 87c coolant pass by (which, according to the FA, is
> what the 078 121 113F thermostat is supposed to do for your car, anyway -
it
> shows that the rubber gasket is between the thermostat and the cover, not
> between the thermostat and the block, FWIW).
> I'd take the thermostat out and check it on the stove, personally.
> A few years ago the temp gauge in the 5ktq was acting up, it would read
> temperature to a certain point, and then stay there. IIRC the temperature
> sensor, often referred to as the "Multimalfunction Device", can fail in
this
> way as it uses a combo of mechanical and electrical devices to read the
> temperature. The replacement of the sensor cured the gauge woes. Look
at:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl.../20vmfsns.html
> and:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl...ing.html#gauge
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:8KudnQVhtsa2m1fcRVn-qg@adelphia.com...
> >
> > The heating system seems to function as well as it can with the
engine
> > coolant temp being low....if that's really the case.
> >
> > Last night I put a therocouple on the temp sensor in the pipe that
> comes
> > out of he rear of the passenger side head. That seemed to read about
> > 70C when the dash needle was where it normally rests. Then I moved the
> > thermocouple to the radiator, right where the heated water enters it.
> That
> > read about 85C or so a few minutes later, when the temp had risen above
> its
> > normal operating temp.
> >
> > Anyway, as you mentioned, I also beleive the only way for the temp
to
> be
> > low is either a bad run of thermostats or something wrong with
> > the way it's installed. Somehow, heated coolant is getting to the
> radiator
> > to lose its heat.
> >
> > Is it possible that the coolant configuration on this engine is
> > different from what the orientation instructions say that come with the
> > thermostat? The thermostat in backwards may cause this sort of problem.
> >
> > I soon need to fix an oil leak on the front of the engine so I'll be
> > removing the timing belt and such anyway. I plan to take a
> > very carefull look at the coolant direction and the orientation of the
> > t-stat and replace it for good measure.
> >
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
> > "Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
> > news:lWgyd.10887$Z%3.661662@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> > > Gene,
> > > I'd get a thermometer and check the temp of the fluid running into the
> > rad.
> > > With a 97c thermostat, the fluid should circulate in the block only
for
> a
> > > longer period, and the regular oil temp should raise as well. The
> coolant
> > > temperature gauge is on the outside of the t-stat, so it is more a
gauge
> > of
> > > the temperature of the fluid in the rad than the engine, and if the
> t-stat
> > > is holding the temp in, then you'd expect the oil temp to go way up.
> I've
> > > heard of new t-stats malfunctioning - I checked the last one I put in
> the
> > > 5ktq on the stove before I put it in - had to use cooking oil as the
> water
> > > was boiling below the opening point (not that I live on a significant
> > > mountain, or anything). Tony is about right - there has to be heated
> > > coolant bypassing the thermostat.
> > > On the heater issue, have you checked that the cabin heating system is
> > > operating correctly? My '87 5ktq had only unheated air out the vents
> all
> > > summer - turns out that the servo motor ist kaput and wouldn't pull
the
> > > bowden cable that changes the air supply from outside to from the
heater
> > > core. I found the servo pack behind the glovebox and manually rotated
> the
> > > servo link to heat - now all I'll have to do is change it back in the
> > spring
> > > (take THAT, "climate control system"!) There's a discussion about CC
> > > problems on Audifans today - if your system has the "fault codes", on
> the
> > > Type 44 system channel 8 and 9 should be within 3 units of each other
if
> > the
> > > servo is working well.
> > > Cheers!
> > > Steve Sears
> > > 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> > > 1980 Audi 5k
> > > 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> > > (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
> > >
> > > "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> > > newsqednTOwjYSTS1XcRVn-pg@adelphia.com...
> > > >
> > > > Ok, before you all say that I need a new thermostat, I've been
> > there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The engine temperature guage seems to regulate to the first,
thin
> > > white
> > > > line at about 1/4 on the guage. There is a thick white line
> > > > just below half way up the guage where I would expect the needle to
> > > settle.
> > > > The needle only gets there on warm days in the summer
> > > > or if I let the car idle stopped for some long period of time.
> Somewhat
> > > > farther up the guage(just above half guage) the fans turn on,
> > > > as I would expect also. The heater blows very slightly warm air if
> the
> > > > outside temp is below, say, 45 degrees.... unless I let the car
> > > > sit idling long enough to get the gauge up to or past the thick whit
e
> > line
> > > I
> > > > mentioned before. Then the heat seems to work fine. If the outside
> > > > temp is below 40 or so, the "Heat" makes my feed cold!
> > > >
> > > > If I'm moving, even at slow speeds, the gauge settles back the
the
> > > thin
> > > > white line at about 1/4 again.
> > > >
> > > > Also, the oil temp only just comes off the cold mark (60degrees
C)
> > to
> > > > the first white mark at about 1/6 the guage. The engine has
> > > > an oil cooler so I wouldn't expect the oil to get much above the
> coolant
> > > > temp.
> > > >
> > > > All indications are that the engine is not getting to full
> operating
> > > > temperature. I've replaced the thermostat twice, once because it
> really
> > > > failed. I've installed the 97 degree C thermostat, not the 87. And
> > > still,
> > > > very low heater output, and the needle stays at about 1/4 on the
> gauge.
> > > > There is no indication on the gauge as to what the temperature value
> is.
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Gene Buckwalter

Thanks, Steve. Like I said, I'll take a very close look at this when I
go after an oil leak in the next few weeks. The sites you listed look very
informative as well. Thanks again.

I should have done some more of this research before I pulled the heads
and replaced valve guides in October. I could have killed this bird with
that stone too.

Gene

"Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
news:03Cyd.28734$GK5.1490881@news20.bellglobal.com ...
> Gene,
> If you have a 97c thermostat installed, the temperature of the coolant
> exiting through the thermostat should be 97c or above. It sounds like the
> thermostat is letting 87c coolant pass by (which, according to the FA, is
> what the 078 121 113F thermostat is supposed to do for your car, anyway -
it
> shows that the rubber gasket is between the thermostat and the cover, not
> between the thermostat and the block, FWIW).
> I'd take the thermostat out and check it on the stove, personally.
> A few years ago the temp gauge in the 5ktq was acting up, it would read
> temperature to a certain point, and then stay there. IIRC the temperature
> sensor, often referred to as the "Multimalfunction Device", can fail in
this
> way as it uses a combo of mechanical and electrical devices to read the
> temperature. The replacement of the sensor cured the gauge woes. Look
at:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl.../20vmfsns.html
> and:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl...ing.html#gauge
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:8KudnQVhtsa2m1fcRVn-qg@adelphia.com...
> >
> > The heating system seems to function as well as it can with the
engine
> > coolant temp being low....if that's really the case.
> >
> > Last night I put a therocouple on the temp sensor in the pipe that
> comes
> > out of he rear of the passenger side head. That seemed to read about
> > 70C when the dash needle was where it normally rests. Then I moved the
> > thermocouple to the radiator, right where the heated water enters it.
> That
> > read about 85C or so a few minutes later, when the temp had risen above
> its
> > normal operating temp.
> >
> > Anyway, as you mentioned, I also beleive the only way for the temp
to
> be
> > low is either a bad run of thermostats or something wrong with
> > the way it's installed. Somehow, heated coolant is getting to the
> radiator
> > to lose its heat.
> >
> > Is it possible that the coolant configuration on this engine is
> > different from what the orientation instructions say that come with the
> > thermostat? The thermostat in backwards may cause this sort of problem.
> >
> > I soon need to fix an oil leak on the front of the engine so I'll be
> > removing the timing belt and such anyway. I plan to take a
> > very carefull look at the coolant direction and the orientation of the
> > t-stat and replace it for good measure.
> >
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
> > "Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
> > news:lWgyd.10887$Z%3.661662@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> > > Gene,
> > > I'd get a thermometer and check the temp of the fluid running into the
> > rad.
> > > With a 97c thermostat, the fluid should circulate in the block only
for
> a
> > > longer period, and the regular oil temp should raise as well. The
> coolant
> > > temperature gauge is on the outside of the t-stat, so it is more a
gauge
> > of
> > > the temperature of the fluid in the rad than the engine, and if the
> t-stat
> > > is holding the temp in, then you'd expect the oil temp to go way up.
> I've
> > > heard of new t-stats malfunctioning - I checked the last one I put in
> the
> > > 5ktq on the stove before I put it in - had to use cooking oil as the
> water
> > > was boiling below the opening point (not that I live on a significant
> > > mountain, or anything). Tony is about right - there has to be heated
> > > coolant bypassing the thermostat.
> > > On the heater issue, have you checked that the cabin heating system is
> > > operating correctly? My '87 5ktq had only unheated air out the vents
> all
> > > summer - turns out that the servo motor ist kaput and wouldn't pull
the
> > > bowden cable that changes the air supply from outside to from the
heater
> > > core. I found the servo pack behind the glovebox and manually rotated
> the
> > > servo link to heat - now all I'll have to do is change it back in the
> > spring
> > > (take THAT, "climate control system"!) There's a discussion about CC
> > > problems on Audifans today - if your system has the "fault codes", on
> the
> > > Type 44 system channel 8 and 9 should be within 3 units of each other
if
> > the
> > > servo is working well.
> > > Cheers!
> > > Steve Sears
> > > 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> > > 1980 Audi 5k
> > > 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> > > (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
> > >
> > > "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> > > newsqednTOwjYSTS1XcRVn-pg@adelphia.com...
> > > >
> > > > Ok, before you all say that I need a new thermostat, I've been
> > there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The engine temperature guage seems to regulate to the first,
thin
> > > white
> > > > line at about 1/4 on the guage. There is a thick white line
> > > > just below half way up the guage where I would expect the needle to
> > > settle.
> > > > The needle only gets there on warm days in the summer
> > > > or if I let the car idle stopped for some long period of time.
> Somewhat
> > > > farther up the guage(just above half guage) the fans turn on,
> > > > as I would expect also. The heater blows very slightly warm air if
> the
> > > > outside temp is below, say, 45 degrees.... unless I let the car
> > > > sit idling long enough to get the gauge up to or past the thick whit
e
> > line
> > > I
> > > > mentioned before. Then the heat seems to work fine. If the outside
> > > > temp is below 40 or so, the "Heat" makes my feed cold!
> > > >
> > > > If I'm moving, even at slow speeds, the gauge settles back the
the
> > > thin
> > > > white line at about 1/4 again.
> > > >
> > > > Also, the oil temp only just comes off the cold mark (60degrees
C)
> > to
> > > > the first white mark at about 1/6 the guage. The engine has
> > > > an oil cooler so I wouldn't expect the oil to get much above the
> coolant
> > > > temp.
> > > >
> > > > All indications are that the engine is not getting to full
> operating
> > > > temperature. I've replaced the thermostat twice, once because it
> really
> > > > failed. I've installed the 97 degree C thermostat, not the 87. And
> > > still,
> > > > very low heater output, and the needle stays at about 1/4 on the
> gauge.
> > > > There is no indication on the gauge as to what the temperature value
> is.
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Gene Buckwalter

Thanks, Steve. Like I said, I'll take a very close look at this when I
go after an oil leak in the next few weeks. The sites you listed look very
informative as well. Thanks again.

I should have done some more of this research before I pulled the heads
and replaced valve guides in October. I could have killed this bird with
that stone too.

Gene

"Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
news:03Cyd.28734$GK5.1490881@news20.bellglobal.com ...
> Gene,
> If you have a 97c thermostat installed, the temperature of the coolant
> exiting through the thermostat should be 97c or above. It sounds like the
> thermostat is letting 87c coolant pass by (which, according to the FA, is
> what the 078 121 113F thermostat is supposed to do for your car, anyway -
it
> shows that the rubber gasket is between the thermostat and the cover, not
> between the thermostat and the block, FWIW).
> I'd take the thermostat out and check it on the stove, personally.
> A few years ago the temp gauge in the 5ktq was acting up, it would read
> temperature to a certain point, and then stay there. IIRC the temperature
> sensor, often referred to as the "Multimalfunction Device", can fail in
this
> way as it uses a combo of mechanical and electrical devices to read the
> temperature. The replacement of the sensor cured the gauge woes. Look
at:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl.../20vmfsns.html
> and:
> http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl...ing.html#gauge
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:8KudnQVhtsa2m1fcRVn-qg@adelphia.com...
> >
> > The heating system seems to function as well as it can with the
engine
> > coolant temp being low....if that's really the case.
> >
> > Last night I put a therocouple on the temp sensor in the pipe that
> comes
> > out of he rear of the passenger side head. That seemed to read about
> > 70C when the dash needle was where it normally rests. Then I moved the
> > thermocouple to the radiator, right where the heated water enters it.
> That
> > read about 85C or so a few minutes later, when the temp had risen above
> its
> > normal operating temp.
> >
> > Anyway, as you mentioned, I also beleive the only way for the temp
to
> be
> > low is either a bad run of thermostats or something wrong with
> > the way it's installed. Somehow, heated coolant is getting to the
> radiator
> > to lose its heat.
> >
> > Is it possible that the coolant configuration on this engine is
> > different from what the orientation instructions say that come with the
> > thermostat? The thermostat in backwards may cause this sort of problem.
> >
> > I soon need to fix an oil leak on the front of the engine so I'll be
> > removing the timing belt and such anyway. I plan to take a
> > very carefull look at the coolant direction and the orientation of the
> > t-stat and replace it for good measure.
> >
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
> > "Steve Sears" <steve.sears@SHOESsoil-mat.on.ca> wrote in message
> > news:lWgyd.10887$Z%3.661662@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> > > Gene,
> > > I'd get a thermometer and check the temp of the fluid running into the
> > rad.
> > > With a 97c thermostat, the fluid should circulate in the block only
for
> a
> > > longer period, and the regular oil temp should raise as well. The
> coolant
> > > temperature gauge is on the outside of the t-stat, so it is more a
gauge
> > of
> > > the temperature of the fluid in the rad than the engine, and if the
> t-stat
> > > is holding the temp in, then you'd expect the oil temp to go way up.
> I've
> > > heard of new t-stats malfunctioning - I checked the last one I put in
> the
> > > 5ktq on the stove before I put it in - had to use cooking oil as the
> water
> > > was boiling below the opening point (not that I live on a significant
> > > mountain, or anything). Tony is about right - there has to be heated
> > > coolant bypassing the thermostat.
> > > On the heater issue, have you checked that the cabin heating system is
> > > operating correctly? My '87 5ktq had only unheated air out the vents
> all
> > > summer - turns out that the servo motor ist kaput and wouldn't pull
the
> > > bowden cable that changes the air supply from outside to from the
heater
> > > core. I found the servo pack behind the glovebox and manually rotated
> the
> > > servo link to heat - now all I'll have to do is change it back in the
> > spring
> > > (take THAT, "climate control system"!) There's a discussion about CC
> > > problems on Audifans today - if your system has the "fault codes", on
> the
> > > Type 44 system channel 8 and 9 should be within 3 units of each other
if
> > the
> > > servo is working well.
> > > Cheers!
> > > Steve Sears
> > > 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> > > 1980 Audi 5k
> > > 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> > > (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
> > >
> > > "Gene Buckwalter" <spam_pit@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> > > newsqednTOwjYSTS1XcRVn-pg@adelphia.com...
> > > >
> > > > Ok, before you all say that I need a new thermostat, I've been
> > there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The engine temperature guage seems to regulate to the first,
thin
> > > white
> > > > line at about 1/4 on the guage. There is a thick white line
> > > > just below half way up the guage where I would expect the needle to
> > > settle.
> > > > The needle only gets there on warm days in the summer
> > > > or if I let the car idle stopped for some long period of time.
> Somewhat
> > > > farther up the guage(just above half guage) the fans turn on,
> > > > as I would expect also. The heater blows very slightly warm air if
> the
> > > > outside temp is below, say, 45 degrees.... unless I let the car
> > > > sit idling long enough to get the gauge up to or past the thick whit
e
> > line
> > > I
> > > > mentioned before. Then the heat seems to work fine. If the outside
> > > > temp is below 40 or so, the "Heat" makes my feed cold!
> > > >
> > > > If I'm moving, even at slow speeds, the gauge settles back the
the
> > > thin
> > > > white line at about 1/4 again.
> > > >
> > > > Also, the oil temp only just comes off the cold mark (60degrees
C)
> > to
> > > > the first white mark at about 1/6 the guage. The engine has
> > > > an oil cooler so I wouldn't expect the oil to get much above the
> coolant
> > > > temp.
> > > >
> > > > All indications are that the engine is not getting to full
> operating
> > > > temperature. I've replaced the thermostat twice, once because it
> really
> > > > failed. I've installed the 97 degree C thermostat, not the 87. And
> > > still,
> > > > very low heater output, and the needle stays at about 1/4 on the
> gauge.
> > > > There is no indication on the gauge as to what the temperature value
> is.
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>